Norway attack.

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Norway attack.

Postby muni » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:29 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43854355/ns ... mp-attack/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFKXMdM_vik&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku-t5Bwx_fg

Meanwhile death toll more than 90, many young ones. Stupid frustrated sem who sees other to attack/destroy or correct or whatever aggresive modelation in accordance with ones own grasping! A reason the more to practice and understand, to care of each other/our being.

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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Om mani peme hum for the victims and the attackers!
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby MJH » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:59 pm

The whole country is in shock. Pretty much everyone is in a daze. This is very strange.........
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:22 pm

Initial media knee jerk reaction was to suspect Alqueda....the US at least needs something like that to substantiate their continued presence in Afghanistan now that Bin Laden is gone.

Seems to be some right wing nut job. Some nut jobs on the left but more on the right is my guess at least since the seventies.
Hated muslims they say he did and leftist politics.

Must have had some training somewhere somehow. To kill that many with personal weapons is almost unheard of unassisted.
This guy needs to be researched someone taught him this heinous deed and how to perform it.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby MJH » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:48 pm

You can fallow the story here....

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslo ... d=10080597

It is the most popular Norwegian paper but they also have this story in English.

The accused is a 32 year old Norwegian. People knew that he was "Nordic" looking quite soon after the shooting started. Phone calls came flooding into the police with his description.

The reason he was able to kill so many young people, was that they were attending a political sumer camp (labor party) on a small island. There was nowhere for the people to go. Some tried to swim to the mainland shore, which was far away. Some made it, some were shot in the water, others drowned. This is a small country, we are all affected in one way or another. I happen to know someone that (it appears as of now) lost her daughter to this tragedy. I know one of the photographers that was first on the scene (before the police) and seen the photos. He described it as totally unbelievable and I have to agree.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:05 pm

Well I disagree...killing about 90 peoples even in that circumstance is very very hard.
All these mass murders want to do that, usually they kill a couple wound some more and then get apprehended.
Someone as happened with the attempted killing of the congresswoman in Arizona quite often the most unsuspecting person, will mount a attack upon the person. It is simply impossible to kill that many wihout reloading and such things. Which is when they are vulnerable. If he killed 90 he must have sent out at least several hundred rounds. Most likely in excess of a thousand.

He must have came very very prepared with training.
Eventually I think he was apprehended. When they run out of ammunition or reload is when they are.
He must have reloaded many many times.
Small island means more were close to him when reloading.
AGain unless he had much training.

Actually the story in the media does not make sense. These peoples did not line up to be shot. For one he shot into water at peoples swimming away and the area is partially forested, so he had to expand a lot of rounds. And he did this with a sumachine gun and hand pistol, and then met the police and voluntary no shots fired gave up??.
A submachine gun is not a weapon of great accuracy. So where did he carry the rounds?
When he showed up to go to the island he stated he was responding as a police officer checking the area because of the bombing.
And noone notices this guy is carrying a thousand rounds of ammunition...what did he have a footlocker with him?.

It is gruesom..... but to kill people you must most commonly shoot them many times in a field situation. The head is hard to hit, so you target most mass which is center of body. To kill with a center body hit is no guarantee so you must shoot them multiple times to assure a kill. And to actually shoot them as they are doing anything they can to avoid you is very very hard. You sometimes mosttimes miss.

I'm sorry this story as the media is telling it makes no sense.

Fireing a submachine gun in a real life mass shooting situation you will expound I'd guess considereing potential misses about 6 rounds per person.
You just would not single shot this weapon in this situation. EAch clip probably weighs at least a pound(bullets are heavy).
So this guy we can assume had 540 rounds expended and probably had at least 600 to 800 with reasonably, with him.
A police officer as hs posed to be carrying aroung 20 pounds of ammunition seems a bit odd to me.
That he did the bombing and the killings...I just dismiss as implausible.

I think our media has just gotten to in bed with governments as the Newcorp relationship in England speaks to, to actually do any real reporting...just believe and report what they are told, and the inverse to perpetuate the relationships they maintain.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:30 am

Actually Ron I was thinking the same thing too. How did he manage to shoot (and kill) so many people by himself? There must have been hundreds of people at the camp, nobody tried to stop him??? The death toll is unbelieveably high for a single killer armed with a submachine gun. Too high. The other thing was how quickly the death toll increased. Initially they were talking 5-10 (a "logical" number) and then it was suddenly 90!

Anyway, even if it was one death it is an unfortunate incident and my condolensces go out to the victims, the perpertrator and their families.

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Re: Norway attack.

Postby muni » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:05 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/

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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Kare » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:13 pm

We are having some terrible days in Norway now. The bombing was bad enough, but the brutal and cold-blooded slaughtering of more than 80 young people really makes the nation weep. This is the time for much metta and karuna ...
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:17 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Initial media knee jerk reaction was to suspect Alqueda....


Actually, an Al Qaueda affliate announced it was their work early on.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Indrajala » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:53 pm

After reading through the materials attributed to him and considering his massacre he actually succeeded in what he set out to do. He wasn't even shot dead by the SWAT team. Now the whole world knows who he is, what he stands for and many people, even those who despise him for his killing spree, will read his 1500 page book 2083 — A European Declaration of Independence, which details at great length why Europeans should preserve themselves against multiculturalism, liberal ideas and Islam.

This is only going to lead to more violence. As time goes on a lot of people, particularly young disaffected youth in Europe, will digest his sentiments and who knows what will happen.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:19 pm

N...groups and organizations customarily claim certain newsworthy events. News media can discern who is and who is claiming...this is routine.
To announce a group claims this or that when they claim every tragic event happening anywhere is a deriliction of duty to report the news.
Al Queda is a terrrorist group.That means they inspire terrorism in the populace, not necessarily to produce certain acts.
The acts are means to a end.... the terror. Reporting in this manner puts a alqueda operative behind every event and thusly works to support their aim...it is irresponsible to say the least, bad journalism without a doubt.

I just saw a blip 6 more have been arrested in Oslo...so my instinct proves out. This was no lone gunman with mass murder on his mind but seemingly a group....now it starts to make sense. And the plot thickens.

Just guessing but my guess is the christian fundametalist issue also starts to sprout holes. .
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:25 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:N...groups and organizations customarily claim certain newsworthy events. News media can discern who is and who is claiming...this is routine.
To announce a group claims this or that when they claim every tragic event happening anywhere is a deriliction of duty to report the news.
Al Queda is a terrrorist group.That means they inspire terrorism in the populace, not necessarily to produce certain acts.
The acts are means to a end.... the terror. Reporting in this manner puts a alqueda operative behind every event and thusly works to support their aim...it is irresponsible to say the least, bad journalism without a doubt.


I merley pointed out that they did indeed claim responsilbility. Perhaps Al Qaeda really thought it was one of their's.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:52 pm

Yes, certainly...I am pointing out how these things work in media circles.

Every big attack has abscribers to that attack as sure as clockwork...... will various groups claim them.
There are certain characteristics of the claiming which make newsgroups able to discern what and who actually did the thing.
To numerous and specific to recount.

To just report the claiming....a bad bad misleading thing to do. This whole story, media wise, from the getgo is completely faulted. They did a poor job. AP sourced the materials I'd guess but they did a bad job whoever it was.
All aspects of this media story don't make sense.

I have already caught several areas of US media agenda to get even more elaborate. US corporate media is pushing for as part of corporate agenda in addition to the ending of all social programs the ending of rule of law for commoners. So many US media sources include as common factor the mention of the attacker only being charged with terrorism and only being able to be jailed for 22 years. I, as one would expect, certainly no expert in NOrwegian law but can reasonably surmise the attacker will be charged with 90 some odd counts of murder, possession of a bomb, possesion of bomb making materials, concealing of evidence, hate crime (if norway has one), causeing injury but not death to those who survived, and on and on...this guy will never see the light of day..

but US media reports 22 years. I wouldn't mind so much that they push their agenda but coupled with poor reporting and they do a not partial but complete disservice.
Fox news in the US has already I can guaranteed you run with the lead on the story the 22 years as primary focus. I don't even have to watch any fox shows...that will be the lead in this story.

That was personally my first red flag on the story....oh oh....this is propoganda, I must look closely to see what happened here. Lies abound. The 22 year thing.

It sounds consprirical but this is how it works. Editors who are in their jobs as they hold political view of their owners in media will screen to see what in any large story, what aspect, supports their political agenda. They then run with what does or edit out parts that conflict. If we see commonality of point as this 22 years is present in several areas in US media.... that means their source(probably AP but it could be any number of others) already edited.
So the editors ran that.
Small stoires may except this process but large one, AP or someone is going to edit in agenda ,even if not really present which seems what happened here.

The personal editors of media can't just make things up, so AP or others(editors) provide the basis for the propoganda found in the story.
Some media may do their own reporting but hardly any really do. That is why a TV show like democracy now or a media, like AlJazeera will have a 180 degree of difference in content on some materials...they often source their own bypassing AP REuters and others. Large large medias such as wash post may as well but less and less they do and only occasonally do they go off script.
.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:57 pm

On the six originally arrested today..I will recant and state I don't know if those that were arrested today are connected.

Some media says yes some says not.... they were questioned and released.
So I'd guess the story is still out on that one, hard to say right now which is true..
Apparently the place had a police guard(the island) and he mysteriously has disappeared.
I still hold my contention not all is as reported initially.

Either this guy was superman or he had help. He coudl have been superman, a exspecial forces or trained by someone as such but it seems beyond the ability of a lone gunman christian fundamentalist we are being told. Yes..those peoples are generally idiots.

If this is a greater issue the playbook comes right out of the Arizona congresswomans killing attempt a couple of months ago.
Patterned on that.

Here's a link...but again this is up in the air right now....http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/norwegian-police-arrest-six-in-oslo-raids-514019.html

The specifics on jail penalty are apparently this....the basic maximum sentencing is 22 years.However this can be extended forever if the person is deemed a high risk individual. Extended 5 years at a time, with review every five years. Forever if necessary. Similiar a bit to the american parol system.
WE can reasonably state this guy will never see the light of day.
After researching a bit I am now a bit familiar :smile:

22 years is always mentioned...never this part. That norway has no death penalty is always mentioned as well.

There is one option I thought i would add as to this thing...if it really transpired as media is portraying it, I'd say the chances are very very remote and will be considered off the wall by most here but I will mention demonic influence. Shamans can cloak themselves as such for means one could employ or use demon to employ and kill 90 or so and go relatively unnoticed while doing so. That could happen. Some meeting is implicated in 02 with this heinous person perhaps....There is some significant past actionable past history of note in Norway apparently to include burning hundreds of witches, which are always totally innocent peoples, due to christian issues.
So who knows how things of karma and demons work in a collective sense. I would not summarily discount it but most may.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Luke » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:20 am

This attack was an act of extreme stupidity. It's ridiculous that one man's idiotic fantasies lead him to kill so many people.
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ronnewmexico wrote:A submachine gun is not a weapon of great accuracy.

This is not always a true statement. For example, the Heckler & Koch MP5 is a submachine gun which is extremely accurate and which can fire 2 or 3-round bursts. I don't know what type of submachine gun the attacker used.

If people put half the energy into spiritual progress that they currently put into finding better ways to kill people, we would have a lot of bodhisattvas in the world!
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Quiet Heart » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:52 am

:popcorn:
This is not always a true statement. For example, the Heckler & Koch MP5 is a submachine gun which is extremely accurate and which can fire 2 or 3-round bursts. I don't know what type of submachine gun the attacker used.


Unfortunately, that's true. With a minimum of training a normal person can get the right trigger pressure and timing to fire off 3 to 5 round bursts that will impact in the area of the target. All it takes is on of those rounds hitting the target to kill. I actually quified expert with the M-60 machine gun, but that was not my fuction in the military. I was a communications/eclectronics technician and i did not get invoved in combat except as a convenient target. (But they missed).
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:51 pm

Guns such as these can be accurate, I won't deny that, on a shooting range or some such. In a field situation shooting large amounts of people this person undoubtably would not fire this gun in the same manner. Depends of course on what he used. A machine gun tends to innacuracy as amount of rounds makes careful targeting unnecessary. It is just not utilzed in field use as one would a single shot weapon. Tending to more rounds
Supposedly it is now stated he had a silencer for the weapon, which I would suggest bears looking into as well. AS others mention hearing reports of the weapon.

My point is really not the specifics of the weapon,(in actual use I'd say it is inaccurate compared to other weaponry) as to how accurate it is on a shooting range but that he had to have a large cache of ammunition, I'd say probably about 1000 rounds. Peoples were running hiding swimming away there is no way I see it he didn't expound at least 4-6 rounds per person(average some less some more) in this heinous deed. So I say.....how did he not arouse suspicion at the boat dock carrying all that ammunition? Why would they not be suspicious of a police officer with such a large cache of ammunition but no police car and alone?
If this was a rifle with a scope a couple of rounds each I'd say could be found to be normal, so a lot less ammunition would be necessary, but a submachine gun with multiple targets,....this is not that situation.

Seems odd. There are a lot of unanswered questions. Apparently some witnesses are pointed to two gunmen, so the plot thickens.

My basic point is on the innacurate reporting. It turns out a fox news affiliate I think it was in the UK ran with a headline that the shootings were Al Queda.
Few read articles, many just glimpse headlines... and things like this is how the americans prior to the second iraq war(75%) thought Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. It misleads. Fox and those on the right(to include Obama) want nothing better than to substantiate the US staying in
Afghanistan. Any excuse.
That coupled with these unanswered questions leaves a lot of ground uncovered.
Charles Manson in the US, a notorious seriel killer, goes up for a probation hearing every couple of years as part of his sentencing. So he could in theory be freed at any time. But they mention a 22 year max sentence for this guy, with no mention that this may be extended at five years slots indefinately.
So again it misleads.

Misleads misleads and content itself with unanswered questions abounding.
So I say bad reporting with agenda purvasive within.
A product of corporate media fully as I read it.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby tobes » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:58 pm

Well, we've already had a long thread in which some people expressed alarm at the proliferation of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe, and others justified it as well founded.

I don't wish to start another long, tiring debate; but I think it is worth remembering all that was said on that thread.

As one of the people expressing alarm, well, unfortunately there is now compelling evidence why such a stance is warranted.

As an aside, it is interesting how a Christian doing an unspeakable deed is characterised as "a lone psychotic gunman" (not a Christian terrorist) and no one is blaming the entire religion of Christianity for his action.
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Re: Norway attack.

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:17 pm

tobes wrote:Well, we've already had a long thread in which some people expressed alarm at the proliferation of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe, and others justified it as well founded.

I don't wish to start another long, tiring debate; but I think it is worth remembering all that was said on that thread.

As one of the people expressing alarm, well, unfortunately there is now compelling evidence why such a stance is warranted.

As an aside, it is interesting how a Christian doing an unspeakable deed is characterised as "a lone psychotic gunman" (not a Christian terrorist) and no one is blaming the entire religion of Christianity for his action.


That's not true, Huffpo has it here:

"Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian terrorist determined to touch off a new Christian-Muslim war that would rival medieval Crusades."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-cru ... 08172.html

And there are certainly precedents even in the New Testament for such actions:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [Mt 10.34 NRSV]

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. [Mt. 10.35-39]

Now granted, there is a preponderance of evidence that Jesus would not have approved of the various wars and so on fought in his name. However, militant Christians usually look to the Old Testament for justifications for their wars, as you must know.

Now, it is ironic that man trying to start a race war in Europe chose to murder Socialists, rather than Muslims.
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