Permission to practice: prerequisites?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Starglade
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Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Starglade »

Forgive this very, very basic question, but I have been practicing on my own for some time now and have only recently found a local group with which I want to begin working.

This weekend, there will be a Permission to Practice given for Palden Lhamo. As I have not formally taken refuge with this group, but have done so on my own with the help of texts from FPMT, would I be allowed to attend? I don't want to step in where I shouldn't be going. I've emailed them about it, but I am unsure if the address is a "live" mailbox (where someone will actually see anything that's sent to it) or a "send-only, do-not-reply" (there's no indication either way on the email I received about the programs).

I look forward to hearing from some of you, any of you, one of you . . . :namaste:
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mudra
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by mudra »

I guess I saw this way too late! In general refuge is taken with a lama or some kind of preceptor who is qualified.

Any kind of tantric initiation, be it a Wangchen (full initiation w permission to do self visualization etc) or a Jeynang (subsequent permission in a class of tantra) requires: refuge, boddhisattva vows, and for HYT tantric vows all from qualified preceptors.

So how did it go anyway?
Chaz
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Chaz »

Starglade wrote:Forgive this very, very basic question, but I have been practicing on my own for some time now and have only recently found a local group with which I want to begin working.

This weekend, there will be a Permission to Practice given for Palden Lhamo. As I have not formally taken refuge with this group, but have done so on my own with the help of texts from FPMT, would I be allowed to attend? I don't want to step in where I shouldn't be going. I've emailed them about it, but I am unsure if the address is a "live" mailbox (where someone will actually see anything that's sent to it) or a "send-only, do-not-reply" (there's no indication either way on the email I received about the programs).

I look forward to hearing from some of you, any of you, one of you . . . :namaste:
It's difficult to say whether or not you'll be allowed to attend the empowerment under the circumstances you describe. You'll really need to find out from the group in question either by contacting the teacher directly, or a senior student in the Sangha.

Taking Refuge Vows with the particular group may not be important, but formal vows, somewhere, may be. The only way to know is to contact the group, so keep at it.
Starglade
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Starglade »

Chaz wrote:
Thank you both for responding.

I actually just received a reply from a member of the staff, who indicates that I can indeed take the permission to practice. "Deer Park activities are not limited to students" and if there were prerequisites, they would be mentioned in the info (which there were none called out).

Saturday could prove very interesting for me indeed.

:namaste:
Malcolm
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Malcolm »

Starglade wrote:
Chaz wrote:
Thank you both for responding.

I actually just received a reply from a member of the staff, who indicates that I can indeed take the permission to practice. "Deer Park activities are not limited to students" and if there were prerequisites, they would be mentioned in the info (which there were none called out).

Saturday could prove very interesting for me indeed.

:namaste:
It is strange to attend a permission for a Dharmapala if you have not first received a major intitation into a deity practice like Kalacakra, Yamantaka, etc. Generally, speaking, you would not normally be allowed to attend such a permission without such an empowerment as a prerequisite. You might want to inquire again.

N
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Josef
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Josef »

Namdrol wrote:
It is strange to attend a permission for a Dharmapala if you have not first received a major intitation into a deity practice like Kalacakra, Yamantaka, etc. Generally, speaking, you would not normally be allowed to attend such a permission without such an empowerment as a prerequisite. You might want to inquire again.

N
Agreed.
Whats the point in receiving permission to practice a Dharmapala when you dont even have the means to communicate with them?
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Grigoris
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Grigoris »

Shiiiiit....! It took me three years of busting my lamas chops before he gave the lung for our dhrmapala practice! Just the lung!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Malcolm »

gregkavarnos wrote:Shiiiiit....! It took me three years of busting my lamas chops before he gave the lung for our dhrmapala practice! Just the lung!
:namaste:

That's all you really need for most dharmapala practices.
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Grigoris
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Grigoris »

Namdrol wrote:That's all you really need for most dharmapala practices.
Being an alanalytical/intellectual type I like to hear explanations of the symbolism, visualisations, mudra, etc... of any practice. Of course the lung is enough for one to practice but (and with translations of dharmapala texts being rare as Buddhas teeth in the tradition I practice) I don't like my practice to be merely making melodic vocal sounds and pretty gestures.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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conebeckham
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by conebeckham »

Starglade-

I'd recommend that you ask about whether refuge vows will be bestowed prior to the event. If so, you should take them--there's absolutely no sense in obtaining a "permission to practice" Palden Lhamo, or any other Vajrayana practice, prior to having taken formal refuge. Also, If I were you, I would ask, explicitly, if prior Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment is required in order to receive this "permission to practice." Unfortunately, I have known of past events where such requirements were given by the Lama, but not clearly communicated beforehand--which can be an off-putting experience. As others have noted, Palden Lhamo is a dharma protector, and one normally needs a prior Tantric Empowerment to supplicate Dharma Protectors.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Starglade
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Starglade »

conebeckham wrote:Starglade-

I'd recommend that you ask about whether refuge vows will be bestowed prior to the event. If so, you should take them--there's absolutely no sense in obtaining a "permission to practice" Palden Lhamo, or any other Vajrayana practice, prior to having taken formal refuge. Also, If I were you, I would ask, explicitly, if prior Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment is required in order to receive this "permission to practice." Unfortunately, I have known of past events where such requirements were given by the Lama, but not clearly communicated beforehand--which can be an off-putting experience. As others have noted, Palden Lhamo is a dharma protector, and one normally needs a prior Tantric Empowerment to supplicate Dharma Protectors.
I have been reading all of your responses with great interest.

I also went to the FPMT website, where I found a copy of a daily Palden Lhamo practice in e-book format, listed under the heading "Not requiring empowerment" and available, therefore, to the general interested public.

There seem to be some major contradictions here. I will continue inquiring at Deer Park for specifics to make sure of things before I make that drive. Thank you all, again.
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Josef
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Josef »

Starglade wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Starglade-

I'd recommend that you ask about whether refuge vows will be bestowed prior to the event. If so, you should take them--there's absolutely no sense in obtaining a "permission to practice" Palden Lhamo, or any other Vajrayana practice, prior to having taken formal refuge. Also, If I were you, I would ask, explicitly, if prior Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment is required in order to receive this "permission to practice." Unfortunately, I have known of past events where such requirements were given by the Lama, but not clearly communicated beforehand--which can be an off-putting experience. As others have noted, Palden Lhamo is a dharma protector, and one normally needs a prior Tantric Empowerment to supplicate Dharma Protectors.
I have been reading all of your responses with great interest.

I also went to the FPMT website, where I found a copy of a daily Palden Lhamo practice in e-book format, listed under the heading "Not requiring empowerment" and available, therefore, to the general interested public.

There seem to be some major contradictions here. I will continue inquiring at Deer Park for specifics to make sure of things before I make that drive. Thank you all, again.
Its certainly possible that they offer the practice without a prerequisite.
Its odd because it would be pretty ineffective without having previously received a major empowerment.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Chaz
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Chaz »

Starglade wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Starglade-

I'd recommend that you ask about whether refuge vows will be bestowed prior to the event. If so, you should take them--there's absolutely no sense in obtaining a "permission to practice" Palden Lhamo, or any other Vajrayana practice, prior to having taken formal refuge. Also, If I were you, I would ask, explicitly, if prior Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment is required in order to receive this "permission to practice." Unfortunately, I have known of past events where such requirements were given by the Lama, but not clearly communicated beforehand--which can be an off-putting experience. As others have noted, Palden Lhamo is a dharma protector, and one normally needs a prior Tantric Empowerment to supplicate Dharma Protectors.
I have been reading all of your responses with great interest.

I also went to the FPMT website, where I found a copy of a daily Palden Lhamo practice in e-book format, listed under the heading "Not requiring empowerment" and available, therefore, to the general interested public.

There seem to be some major contradictions here. I will continue inquiring at Deer Park for specifics to make sure of things before I make that drive. Thank you all, again.

No, there are no contradictions. Misunderstanding perhaps, but no contradiction.
Malcolm
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Malcolm »

Starglade wrote: I also went to the FPMT website, where I found a copy of a daily Palden Lhamo practice in e-book format, listed under the heading "Not requiring empowerment" and available, therefore, to the general interested public.

There seem to be some major contradictions here. I will continue inquiring at Deer Park for specifics to make sure of things before I make that drive. Thank you all, again.

They have all kinds of practice text listed on that page that seem not to require empowerments, but in fact most of them do.

N
Starglade
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Starglade »

Namdrol wrote:

They have all kinds of practice text listed on that page that seem not to require empowerments, but in fact most of them do.

N
This is what I mean when I say "there seem to be contradictions." The FPMT site (which is all I have had to work with, until discovering Deer Park--and which I trusted, given its--lineage, for lack of a better word) indicates one thing, answers from practitioners here seem to indicate another. That, to me, is a contradiction--or, as Chaz said, at the very least a misunderstanding.

I have emailed Deer Park again with a request for specific answers about formal refuge-taking and prerequisite empowerment, and am waiting for further responses/clarifications. Thank you all, yet again. I appreciate your patience.

K
Malcolm
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Malcolm »

Starglade wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

They have all kinds of practice text listed on that page that seem not to require empowerments, but in fact most of them do.

N
This is what I mean when I say "there seem to be contradictions." The FPMT site (which is all I have had to work with, until discovering Deer Park--and which I trusted, given its--lineage, for lack of a better word) indicates one thing, answers from practitioners here seem to indicate another. That, to me, is a contradiction--or, as Chaz said, at the very least a misunderstanding.

I have emailed Deer Park again with a request for specific answers about formal refuge-taking and prerequisite empowerment, and am waiting for further responses/clarifications. Thank you all, yet again. I appreciate your patience.

K
Sure, usually when you take a dharmapala inititation, you have comittments to make offerings on a daily or monthly basis.

Also, generally, as we mentioned, one usually needs to have received a highest yoga tantra empowerment.

But, these things are also at the discretion of the teacher.

N
Starglade
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Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?

Post by Starglade »

Namdrol wrote:
Sure, usually when you take a dharmapala inititation, you have comittments to make offerings on a daily or monthly basis.

Also, generally, as we mentioned, one usually needs to have received a highest yoga tantra empowerment.

But, these things are also at the discretion of the teacher.

N
I have heard back again from the coordinator at Deer Park, and I will not be attending tomorrow's permission. After my situation was better explained she consulted with the lama-in-residence on my behalf, and as I was beginning to suspect (thanks to all of you), for my benefit it would be better not to attend this session.

I thank you once again for all your assistance and willingness to listen to a newcomer's question.

K
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