buddhist hinduism?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Josef » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:59 pm

Enochian wrote:
Read Emptiness by Gesh Tashi Tsering.

I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy, so I am pretty sure what I have written is correct.

Not everyone agrees with Geshe Tashi's interpretation.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:23 pm

Enochian wrote:Read Emptiness by Gesh Tashi Tsering.

I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy, so I am pretty sure what I have written is correct.


I bow to Geshe Tashi Tsering.

However if you are speaking of "thoughtforms" which "exist" this sounds like Cittamatra analysis. IMHO consciousness, let alone "thoughtforms", can't be "designated" upon causes and conditions at all since it doesn't "exist" to begin with - nor not exist; i.e. the Prasangika analysis is the best here since it makes no assertions in that regard. Therefore it's the best view for meditation.
User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:29 pm

Enochian wrote:
I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy...


Then there is no hope for you at all. Madhyamaka is not to followed, it is to be used to pacify proliferations, including the one called "Madhyamaka".
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10165
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:52 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Read Emptiness by Gesh Tashi Tsering.

I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy, so I am pretty sure what I have written is correct.

Not everyone agrees with Geshe Tashi's interpretation.



Ok read "The Middle Way" by the Dalai Lama.

Truth be told, the first time I read Geshe Tashi's book was like 3 days in a book store.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy...


Then there is no hope for you at all. Madhyamaka is not to followed, it is to be used to pacify proliferations, including the one called "Madhyamaka".



Of course Madhyamaka is simply a mass of discursive thought and intellectual concepts. Thats obvious.

But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.

I have yet to see someone tell it like it is, like I do in my signature.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Josef » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:03 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Read Emptiness by Gesh Tashi Tsering.

I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy, so I am pretty sure what I have written is correct.

Not everyone agrees with Geshe Tashi's interpretation.



Ok read "The Middle Way" by the Dalai Lama.

Truth be told, the first time I read Geshe Tashi's book was like 3 days in a book store.

I was at the teachings HHDL gave that later became The Middle Way.
I remember them quite well.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Enochian wrote:
But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.



That's not Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10165
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.



That's not Dzogchen.



Ok I have to take your word for it, since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.



That's not Dzogchen.



Ok I have to take your word for it, since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.


The difference is that Dzogchen is experiential while Mahdyamaka is analytical.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10165
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:The difference is that Dzogchen is experiential while Mahdyamaka is analytical.



I think thats understood. I simply like Mahdyamaka philosophy. I can't help it. Its so fraking awesome.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Josef » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:17 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The difference is that Dzogchen is experiential while Mahdyamaka is analytical.



I think thats understood. I simply like Mahdyamaka philosophy. I can't help it. Its so fraking awesome.

You should read Freedom From Extremes by Gorampa.
Thats my favorite Madhyamaka book.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The difference is that Dzogchen is experiential while Mahdyamaka is analytical.



I think thats understood. I simply like Mahdyamaka philosophy. I can't help it. Its so fraking awesome.

You should read Freedom From Extremes by Gorampa.
Thats my favorite Madhyamaka book.


Is there more to Madhyamaka than what I said previously?:

Everything exists as thoughtforms (appearances) merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, the Buddhas, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Enochian wrote:Of course Madhyamaka is simply a mass of discursive thought and intellectual concepts. Thats obvious.

But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.

I have yet to see someone tell it like it is, like I do in my signature.


You may be mistaking the path for the result. Or, rather, the instructions for the reality.

Madhyamaka is not simply "a mass of discursive thought," nor is Dzokchen "a bunch of concepts."
Madhyamaka, Dzokchen, and Mahamudra are all the same thing, the same reality, which is beyond linguistic expression, eh?
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:25 pm

conebeckham wrote:Madhyamaka, Dzokchen, and Mahamudra are all the same thing, the same reality, which is beyond linguistic expression, eh?


Based on his written works, Bon Loppon Tenzin Namdak strongly disagrees with that.

But I appreciate the main thrust of what you said.
Last edited by Enochian on Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Josef » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:31 pm

Enochian wrote:
I think thats understood. I simply like Mahdyamaka philosophy. I can't help it. Its so fraking awesome.

You should read Freedom From Extremes by Gorampa.
Thats my favorite Madhyamaka book.[/quote]

Is there more to Madhyamaka than what I said previously?:

Everything exists as thoughtforms (appearances) merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, the Buddhas, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.[/quote]


There is less. I find this presentation clunky a a bit problematic.
Gorampa addresses this issue in Freedom from Extremes.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:36 pm

conebeckham wrote:You may be mistaking the path for the result. Or, rather, the instructions for the reality.

Madhyamaka is not simply "a mass of discursive thought," nor is Dzokchen "a bunch of concepts."
Madhyamaka, Dzokchen, and Mahamudra are all the same thing, the same reality, which is beyond linguistic expression, eh?
Smart ass! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7889
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:59 pm

Enochian wrote:Is there more to Madhyamaka than what I said previously?:

Everything exists as thoughtforms (appearances) merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, the Buddhas, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.


It still sounds like Chittamatra. Higher views assert that genuine reality is emptiness like space or is free from complexity and beyond all thought and expression.
User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Enochian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:13 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Enochian wrote:Is there more to Madhyamaka than what I said previously?:

Everything exists as thoughtforms (appearances) merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, the Buddhas, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.


It still sounds like Chittamatra. Higher views assert that genuine reality is emptiness like space or is free from complexity and beyond all thought and expression.



how about this?

Everything exists as labels merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, the Buddhas, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:25 pm

Sounds good. How about this:

Whereas apparent reality is whatever ordinary people believe truly exists, genuine reality is free from complexity and beyond all thought and expression.

Unknowable by analogy; peace;
Not of the fabric of fabrications;
Nonconceptual; free of distinctions -
These are the characteristics of the precise nature.

Nagarjuna, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way
User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: buddhist hinduism?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:03 am

Enochian wrote:
I have yet to see someone tell it like it is, like I do in my signature.


This is because you haven't yet received Dzogchen transmission and you've read very few Dzogchen texts. The explanations about the mirror and kadag and lhundrub and their inseparability are skillful means to bring about understanding and possibly trigger insight, but they are not meditated upon. So from that point of view they are not the main point. Instead, one relaxes with an utter lack of modification or fabrication or placement or objectification of any kind; though even these words can be misleading because there can be a great resemblance between rigpa and the state of non-conceptual quiescence, even though in reality there is the most profound difference between the two. This is of course why the guru is indispensable: first in terms of helping one recognize one's primordial state and then guiding one so one can stay on course and not fall into deviations that can be difficult to apprehend.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Konchog1, Nemo, smcj, supermaxv, Tabkye, theanarchist and 16 guests

>