Thoughts

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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:42 pm

This is my understanding:
the comparison of a mirror to the nature of mind is one which has been around for a while.
A mirror only assumes the appearance of whatever is reflected in it.
So, this is compared to the mind which has no color or shape of it own,
but is usually only experienced when thoughts occur.
Thoughts are the motion of the mind.

You asked,
-How can here reflections be seen in a mirror?
When you look into a mirror, are you looking at the mirror -- or what is being reflected in the mirror, or both?
So, if you look at thoughts, you are looking at the mind and at what is reflected in the mind.
However, when thoughts are quieted, it isn't the experience of "no thought" compared with "a thought" .
it is just open space awareness.
If we say that thoughts arise in the mind, this is only partly accurate.
It is true in the relative sense. But it might be more accurate to say, "When the mind manifests as thought".

It's like when we say "the wind is blowing".
It sounds like there is something called "wind' which can either be blowing or not blowing.
But of course, if it isn't blowing, there it isn't wind. But there is space.
If we say, "the mind is thinking" it's the same way.
Without thoughts blowing around, there is no "thing' which is the mind, but there is space.

- Where do the reflections come from?
If you put a mirror into a dark room, it ceases to be (to function as) a mirror because there is no light to reflect. Yet, the causes of reflection, the quality of a smooth surface and metalic substance is still there, but they just aren't doing anything. But as soon as light hits it, the causes of reflection are instantly activated, and 'within' that mirror is the appearance of something.

Likewise, thought becomes the activity of mind when something activates the senses, or when we dream.
Then, thought arises with the characteristics of whatever that that event is.
If a firetruck roars by, thought takes the shape or sound of a firetruck. If it roars by while you are meditating, then mayne thought takes the shape of being startled, or of interruption.
But "thought" is the reflection, not the mirror.
There is not a lump of some "thing" which is "mind" simply waiting around in dark space until a light goes on or a fire truck roars by, like a sleeping dog that suddenly jumps up and starts barking when the doorbell rings.
In one sense, mind can only be compared with a mirror while thoughts are occurring.
However, the analogy of a mirror is also used to describe the clear and non-discriminating awareness of mind.
Otherwise, mind is just like space.

In India a while back, it was thought by some Buddhists, that perhaps the mind was a permanent thing like a soul or "atma" but this idea was refuted.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:04 am

"When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and defecating. It should not become a specialized or formal event, bloated with seriousness and solemnity. We should realize that meditation transcends effort, practice, aims, goals and the duality of liberation and non-liberation. Meditation is always ideal; there is no need to correct anything. Since everything that arises is simply the play of mind as such, there is no unsatisfactory meditation and no need to judge thoughts as good or bad." --Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:48 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:This is my understanding:
the comparison of a mirror to the nature of mind is one which has been around for a while.
A mirror only assumes the appearance of whatever is reflected in it.
So, this is compared to the mind which has no color or shape of it own,
but is usually only experienced when thoughts occur.
Thoughts are the motion of the mind.

You asked,
-How can here reflections be seen in a mirror?
When you look into a mirror, are you looking at the mirror -- or what is being reflected in the mirror, or both?
So, if you look at thoughts, you are looking at the mind and at what is reflected in the mind.

I see it more as a projection then a reflection the way of seeing. So here i have problems to see reflection as the only possibilty to see the thoughts or to make the thoughts visible.



- Where do the reflections come from?
If you put a mirror into a dark room, it ceases to be (to function as) a mirror because there is no light to reflect. Yet, the causes of reflection, the quality of a smooth surface and metalic substance is still there, but they just aren't doing anything. But as soon as light hits it, the causes of reflection are instantly activated, and 'within' that mirror is the appearance of something.

In the dark room rertreat of the Dzogchenpa, is light etc. seen as a projection so here is no reflection needed.


THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Thoughts

Postby username » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:06 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:In the dark room rertreat of the Dzogchenpa, is light etc. seen as a projection so here is no reflection needed.


Very well and aptly said, also in the 'Hidden Bon Treasures' thread you made some excellent correct comments.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:35 am

I had to think a while about what you were asking, so i am not sure if this will make sense or not.
Describing thoughts as projections of the mind means that they are expressions of how we usually react to events. Sometimes this has to do with what we perceive through the senses, and sometimes this has to do with things we imagine or dream. But even dreams are expressions based on thoughts we have during the time when we are awake. So, for example, we see a flower and we think "that flower is beautiful" but the flower is neither ugly nor beautiful. It is just a flower. So "beautiful" is what we project on that flower. it is as if we are shining a colored spotlight on the flower. In this situation, we are looking at something in terms of what we like or do not like, and we usually like beautiful things, so we say that a beautiful flower is good. But this is all just grasping at desire.

Describing the activity of a clear mind as similar to a mirror refers to perceiving a thing without shining the light of what we like or don't like on it. A mirror reflects all flowers the same way. It doesn't make some flowers look better than other flowers.

I think it is in Nagarjuna's Letter To a Friend, when he is giving some tips on how to practice mindfulness as a layperson, that he says "regard all food as medicine". Often, people get very picky about food or make a big deal out of the flavor. And there is nothing wrong with this, but it is eating food with all sorts of projections about how it should taste. However, the point is to take food without attachment. So, it is possible to just eat what somebody offers you, or what is available, and just eat it, and this would be eating it with mirror-like mindfulness.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:41 am

[quote="PadmaVonSamba"]I had to think a while about what you were asking, so i am not sure if this will make sense or not.
Describing thoughts as projections of the mind means that they are expressions of how we usually react to events. Sometimes this has to do with what we perceive through the senses, and sometimes this has to do with things we imagine or dream. But even dreams are expressions based on thoughts we have during the time when we are awake. So, for example, we see a flower and we think "that flower is beautiful" but the flower is neither ugly nor beautiful. It is just a flower. So "beautiful" is what we project on that flower. it is as if we are shining a colored spotlight on the flower. In this situation, we are looking at something in terms of what we like or do not like, and we usually like beautiful things, so we say that a beautiful flower is good. But this is all just grasping at desire.


KY wrote:
Thoughts are colouring the object which is seen. It is like looking at a river flow, the continuous stream of thoughts. It are the expressions / world / experience of the karmic mind, this dualistic show. During the night time thoughts are read by the 6th conciousness or the mind of the senses. As long as thoughts are connected to the ingnorant ego, the karmic life is continued. Therefore we say that all is illusion because the not correct view about the object, caused by the thoughts movies which are stored in the Kun gzhi nam shes. All is here projected to the object. The eyes see an object - The object is coloured by the thoughts - and directed to the outer object. That is meant by the way the body of karma sees. Here i prefer to use projections instead of reflexions.
The illusions stop when the thoughts are dissolved into their Nature. Then one enters the State of non-dualism or the N.S.


Padma von Samba wrote:
Describing the activity of a clear mind as similar to a mirror refers to perceiving a thing without shining the light of what we like or don't like on it. A mirror reflects all flowers the same way. It doesn't make some flowers look better than other flowers.


KY wrote:
In so far i can follow the mirror, i can agree that the mirror is empty and because that emptiness the mirror can reflect.
The karmic mirror is not empty but filled with past experiences which don' t exist in no way anymore. So here cannot said there are reflections but more projections of the past.

It is like water, water has the ability to reflect, it is inherent in water present. But the reflection in the water of the moon is not existing because it is a reflection. The moon is somewhere else.
But the moon is projected in the water by a certain power and is by the way of reflection visible in the mirror / water. So the mirror or water has the ability to reflect an outer object. But in case of the way of karmic sight this is projection i guess because reflection could be possible only in case of the egoless mind. And that is here the question i do suppose. The difference between reflection and projection.

But i am interested to refine this opinion somehow....... ;)

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:03 am

One fixated thought =phenomenon is born.
Focus by following thought = me is born.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:36 pm

muni wrote:One fixated thought =phenomenon is born.
Focus by following thought = me is born.


Pretty sure you have the order reversed.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:One fixated thought =phenomenon is born.
Focus by following thought = me is born.


Pretty sure you have the order reversed.


Only looking closely: When there is thought arising; there is percieved object and then get attention of a mind/subject (or other thought). Oh, something is arising-attention. Therefore "let it be".

When "I came out of narcose" then this thought arised: "two things". Focus on it. "Oh! Those are feet"-identification "was born"of the feet by the me-thought. "My feet"...
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:37 pm

muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:One fixated thought =phenomenon is born.
Focus by following thought = me is born.


Pretty sure you have the order reversed.


Only looking closely: When there is thought arising; there is percieved object and then get attention of a mind/subject (or other thought). Oh, something is arising-attention. Therefore "let it be".

When "I came out of narcose" then this thought arised: "two things". Focus on it. "Oh! Those are feet"-identification "was born"of the feet by the me-thought. "My feet"...


You're not looking closely enough. There is a barely perceptible "perceiver" that precedes any such thoughts. In other words, that sense of subjectivity is present even before such thoughts arise. Except when one is in one's primordial state, this notion of self is present - even if barely perceptible - even if no thoughts are occurring. There is an observer lurking there. Thoughts are not required to bring it about.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:43 pm

Thoughts are free nature, luminosity. Rigpa is not like mind fishing appearance, appaering thoughts (appaerance-emptiness at the same time). Ignorance see thoughts. In thought is no wisdom.

Seeing is in awareness. Nobody is home but the light is on. That is the teaching of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche about how a solid self arises. Cannot in nondual. Connot be understood through my elaborations which are driving me deeper into own created movie, away from natural unholding.

In the morning I put/click my thoughts on.
Or thoughts as free nature are chased, fixated.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:11 am

muni wrote:Thoughts are free nature, luminosity. Rigpa is not like mind fishing appearance, appaering thoughts (appaerance-emptiness at the same time). Ignorance see thoughts. In thought is no wisdom.

Seeing is in awareness. Nobody is home but the light is on. That is the teaching of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche about how a solid self arises. Cannot in nondual. Connot be understood through my elaborations which are driving me deeper into own created movie, away from natural unholding.

In the morning I put/click my thoughts on.
Or thoughts as free nature are chased, fixated.


Thoughts may arise whether in mind or in rigpa. In mind, there is a subtle perceiver of thoughts that recognizes and reifies them. In rigpa, the perceiver and the perceived have both self-liberated, so that even if an onslaught of thoughts bubbles up, no perceiver is there to grasp onto them, so those thoughts self-liberate just as fast as they arise.

*edited once to more accurately word what I meant.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:03 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:[
Describing thoughts as projections of the mind means that they are expressions of how we usually react to events. KY wrote:
Thoughts are colouring the object which is seen. It is like looking at a river flow, the continuous stream of thoughts. It are the expressions / world / experience of the karmic mind, this dualistic show. During the night time thoughts are read by the 6th conciousness or the mind of the senses. As long as thoughts are connected to the ingnorant ego, the karmic life is continued. Therefore we say that all is illusion because the not correct view about the object, caused by the thoughts movies which are stored in the Kun gzhi nam shes. All is here projected to the object. The eyes see an object - The object is coloured by the thoughts - and directed to the outer object. That is meant by the way the body of karma sees. Here i prefer to use projections instead of reflexions.
The illusions stop when the thoughts are dissolved into their Nature. Then one enters the State of non-dualism or the N.S.
[/color]

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]

As in the naturally state is nothing to alter. In naturally vastness is the interactive play of intellectual/emotional chasing/grasping to phenomena/thoughts, exhausted. As the play is seen how all appaer and is, no any colours to add.

:anjali:

“Rest in natural great peace
This exhausted mind,
Beaten relentlessly
by karma and neurotic thoughts,
Like the unceasing fury
of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in the natural great peace.”

- Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:01 pm

There is nothing wrong with thoughts, thoughts are the natural play of mind, problems arise when we become attached to "positive" thoughts or are repulsed by "negative" thoughts.

I have been taught to be aware of the arising of thoughts, just see them arising, recognise that they are merely the spontaneous play of mind and watch them dissolve (again spontaneously). Then just relax, nothing else, and observe/be aware. No analysis, no method, no object.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:37 pm

Judgements wrong/good, yes.

Aware of not hopping behind each movement as a dog behind bones,
solidifying- identifying as me or the others; becoming the thought,
or helpless caught in them as being caught in playstation stories....

Mastering if useful, not being their enslaved fabricated actor...getting lost in movements.

Leave the rising in the rising, in nature.

Nothing wrong. :namaste:
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:52 pm

Nothing right! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:09 pm

A thought is just mental flatulence.
let it go, and you'll feel better.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:53 pm

Thoughts are not just mental flatulance.
But I think you were kidding.

:smile:
Right?
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:49 am

gregkavarnos wrote:There is nothing wrong with thoughts, thoughts are the natural play of mind, problems arise when we become attached to "positive" thoughts or are repulsed by "negative" thoughts.

I have been taught to be aware of the arising of thoughts, just see them arising, recognise that they are merely the spontaneous play of mind and watch them dissolve (again spontaneously). Then just relax, nothing else, and observe/be aware. No analysis, no method, no object.
:namaste:


Tashi delek,

Thoughts like the + ones are a good way to experience bliss states.
Negative thoughts are making the person not happy or more confused
In this light seen do mean + thoughts a lot for some practitioners
Therefore + thoughts are not to be thrown away as dirt in the trashcan, they can and are very usefull and meaningfull on all paths.

So in that way must a Dzogchenpa concider the + thoughts as meaningfull, a starter to get emancipated.
Because Dzogchen encompasses the highest view it honours all ways ( Buddhistic paths) to enlightenment where itself is the crown on the aforementioned paths.

Because Dzogchen has a different approach to thoughts it does not transform the thoughts like we do in Tantra.
Like Greg told it is disssolved into that where it came out from.
Here we can experience the related Wisdom at that moment of dissolving the thought. It is the unpolluted source of the specific thought which appears as self emanated. THat was first, the unpolluted 5 Wisdoms but we made out of ignorance the conflicting emotional Kleshas of the/those Wisdoms.

So in comparisation to Tantra where one is working with dualisms, which is not used in Dzogchen, a Dzogchenpa does nothing but only let dissolve the thoughts and as a result the Wisdom is self emanating.

As a Dzogchenpa and a Tantrist, i do prefer the Dzogchen method of dissolving thoughts over the more dualistic approach used in Tantra.
That means indeed that as a Dzogchenpa i score a better result when i am not engaged in dualistic approaches.

Therefore for me personal is the Natural State a perfect representation of being dwelling / to be aware of the first unpolluted mind, which State i hardly can find inside Tantra..........

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Enochian » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:17 pm

This thread is why I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.

Its not that complicated. Read my sig.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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