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the great rebirth debate - Page 39 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:13 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

Sanghamitta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:19 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:54 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:56 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

seanpdx
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:12 pm


Sanghamitta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:53 pm

Greetings,

But if you can't do that, how will you log in?

:tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:16 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Cittasanto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:15 am

0101 then press Alt + x gives you ā in times new roman font on a word page you can also get the special characters from the character map.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Kenshou
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:21 am

I don't want to break up the flow of the thread, but I also don't have time to read 30 pages, though I've skimmed. If I'm dredging up topics that have been thoroughly trodden already, do ignore me.

But it seems to me that rebirth is an important issue, because if it is indeed true, then if we are not able to get enlightened in this very life, we've got more suffering ahead of us, don't we? People seem to bring up the quote that the Buddha teaches only the origin and cessation of suffering as a way to nullify the issue, but I don't agree that understanding rebirth is not part of the teaching of the cessation of suffering. More births would equal more dukkha, more wandering in samsara, so it is certainly very relevant, isn't it? For that reason it seems to me that rebirth has it's place in the dhamma for a good reason. If there were not going to be further births, with more stress and death, it wouldn't be an issue worth mention.

It seems to me that at the end of this one life, if all perceptions and sensations do end, there is no necessity to strive for enlightenment, since that full release will come in the end regardless of what we do. The Dhamma would still be useful as a means for coping while alive, but why must we strive for release from suffering within this life, outside of comfort in the face of death, when the end of suffering will come no matter what? The Dhamma just seems to lose it's potency without rebirth.

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:24 am

Pretty much the way I feel too Kenshou.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

seanpdx
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:52 am


Kenshou
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:21 am

So would I, Sean. In fact, I wrote a paragraph about that but deleted it for the sake of brevity, but I'll restate it: I do think that if hypothetically, rebirth were somehow proven false, I believe that I still would want to practice the dhamma, since regardless of what happens post-death, it is still certainly relevant to our present lives, which I tried to communicate when I said "The Dhamma would still be useful as a means for coping while alive". Maybe coping isn't the word everyone would prefer, but either way I agree about the utility of the dharma in this present existence. And I specifically picked the terms "necessity" and "must" to communicate that regardless of weather or not we -should- strive for release from dukkha, we don't -have- to, since that release will come regardless.

Also, note the bolded if in my post. What I meant to signify is that rebirth becomes more of an issue of consideration when one is not able to be awakened in this life, since if you are, then regardless this birth will be your last. But as hard as we might try, not all of us will accomplish that. I'm making no implications about your or anyone else's ability, I'm just saying that weather the potential is there or not, not everyone will be enlightened in this life, and even if you are going to be, not everyone else is, so when considering the well being of all, it becomes a larger issue than that.

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:23 am

What do rebirth deniers have to say about the four stages of sainthood, and their necessary cosmological implications for the being?

metta
Jack :heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:59 pm


meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:06 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:19 pm


PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:23 pm

Thats called cloud cuckoo land and is not an option. Unless you are a Buddha. And that does not happen until you have seen that the nature of things is Dukkha Anatta And Anicca.

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:53 pm


PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:00 pm

No I would pleasure myself to death. Why not ? I would live heedlessly and to hell with it. I would not hold back. I would be whole hearted in my rejection of the importance of consequences. Why not ? I would not limp through life expecting the best of both worlds, a little pleasure here and a little Dhamma there. Its all or nothing.
Even the moments apparantly lived without suffering are simply due to our current lack of sensitivity. With increased insight arises the certainty that all conditioned existence is characterised by Dukkha, just as the Buddha said.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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