Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:35 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
LastLegend wrote:So far no other human have become Buddha. So Buddha was Buddha and was here to teach. Part of the enactment.

That's my reasoning.


Umm, many other humans have become Buddhas. Even according to the Pali Cannon Buddha Shakyamuni was the 4th Buddha of this world system. Then Mahayana talks of many, many Buddhas and details their lives as humans on the path prior to attaining Buddhahood.

Take the female Buddha Tara for instance, who as the practitioner Jnana Chandra/Yeshe Dawa/Wisdom Moon vowed to attain Buddhahood in a human female form and to always manifest in female form to make evident to women that their Buddha nature and potential to realize enlightenment is in no way inferior to that of men. Or consider the Licchavi Vimalakirti. In the Vimalakirti Nirdesha sutra the Buddha himself told Manjushri and other Bodhisattvas that Vimalakirti was every bit as enlightened as he was. These are just two easy examples.



Tashi delek,

In addition to your reply, there are also Buddhas on earth who were straight emantions from a Samboghakaya form.
They did not "became Buddha" but showed by their practical live examples the different related paths.

Some of us have sure some examples from those emanations.
I have sometimes a problem with the emanation Tulku in the form of an emation of for instance Djampal Djang / Manjushri.
But that is what we already have discussed in all colours.
But a Sambhogakaya emanation that is mostly a Buddha or one who shows to become a Buddha done by the so called self liberation etc., all in all very clear to me.

Maybe are there more ways to meet Buddhas on earth?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:36 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
LastLegend wrote:So far no other human have become Buddha. So Buddha was Buddha and was here to teach. Part of the enactment.

That's my reasoning.


Umm, many other humans have become Buddhas. Even according to the Pali Cannon Buddha Shakyamuni was the 4th Buddha of this world system. Then Mahayana talks of many, many Buddhas and details their lives as humans on the path prior to attaining Buddhahood.
How about Guru Rinpoche for example?
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby booker » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:55 am

caveman wrote:What do you think my friends?

I think the question should not be "was Buddha fully enlightened?" but rather "am I fully enlightened"?
And then do something about it.
:oops:
"Be Buddhist or be Buddha"
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby pemachophel » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Seems to me that achieving Buddhahood and manifesting as a Buddha are two different things. So I think it is problematic to say there has only been one human (in historical times) to have achieved Buddhahood. Many Indian and Tibetan practitioners are believed to have achieved Buddhahood in Their lifetimes. However, that does not mean They manifested the 82 major and all the minor marks nor that They displayed all the acts of a Buddha. From this POV, Shakyamuni did not achieve Buddhahood in his lifetime as Gautama Siddhartha. He merely displayed the way to Buddhahood during this "reign."

In any case, Booker's advice is spot on. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby kirtu » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:45 pm

booker wrote:
caveman wrote:What do you think my friends?

I think the question should not be "was Buddha fully enlightened?" but rather "am I fully enlightened"?
And then do something about it.
:oops:


:woohoo: :applause:

And then there's the standard of "Is samsara emptied yet?"

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:40 am

Kirt wrote:
And then there's the standard of "Is samsara emptied yet?"



Tashi delek,

The above mentioned reply is not clear at all to me, about its meaning. :shock:

Where does this reply, explain something, in relation to what?
Maybe you could elucidate your reply, if possible?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby denice » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:10 pm

Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"

"No, World Honored One . There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."

YES HE WAS ...and yes others have attained enlightenment
sutra is pointing see it and do it .

the posting from caveman speaking of leaving wife and son behind in the middle of the night ...NO HINDRANCE
keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."
"So I say to you -
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:"
"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream."
"So is all conditioned existence to be seen."
Thus spoke Buddha.
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:56 am

denice wrote:Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"

"No, World Honored One . There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."

YES HE WAS ...and yes others have attained enlightenment
sutra is pointing see it and do it .

the posting from caveman speaking of leaving wife and son behind in the middle of the night ...NO HINDRANCE



Tashi delek,

Yes according the Tibetans it is a good deed if a man or woman leaves their homes and become a monk / nun.
So here is not at all a bad deed seen in the TIbetan culture. All in all a very positive deed to leave home and exchange it for the monastery, a honour for the family anyway.

The highest goal in life would be the exchange of illusion for a better understanding and way of living.
Emancipation is never a hindrance and if it is a hindrance then this stems out of an unrealised mind, i guess so.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby daelm » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:11 am

caveman wrote:
And you Sir are only guessing about why the buddha did what he did. Deeds Speak and you can make up all the reasons but Sir you will never convince a woman that leaving your wife and child for the dharma is OK. They do not consider this enlightened or compassion in action.

They call it cowardly!



cowardly is turning your back on the suffering of billions, to secure the approval of two. cowardly is, having done that, watching them die in confusion, unable to do anything about it, after ensuring they lived the lives of chattels and menial servants tasked with waiting on you hand and foot, all the while clutching your "manly nobility" and "duty" to your withered chest.

fortunately for you - and all of us - the Buddha never did that.


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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby kirtu » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:08 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Kirt wrote:
And then there's the standard of "Is samsara emptied yet?"



Tashi delek,

The above mentioned reply is not clear at all to me, about its meaning. :shock:

Where does this reply, explain something, in relation to what?
Maybe you could elucidate your reply, if possible?

Best wishes
KY


I wrote this in response to:
I think the question should not be "was Buddha fully enlightened?" but rather "am I fully enlightened"?
And then do something about it.


So a person recognizes that they are not enlightened and then does something about it.

However my response is:
And then there's the standard of "Is samsara emptied yet?"


this thought keeps Bodhicitta foremost in mind and extends through Buddhahood. By this standard all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are still working very hard in order to empty samsara of suffering.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:01 am

daelm wrote:

cowardly is turning your back on the suffering of billions, to secure the approval of two. cowardly is, having done that, watching them die in confusion, unable to do anything about it, after ensuring they lived the lives of chattels and menial servants tasked with waiting on you hand and foot, all the while clutching your "manly nobility" and "duty" to your withered chest.

fortunately for you - and all of us - the Buddha never did that.


d


:good:
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Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?

Postby Chaz » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:15 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
daelm wrote:

cowardly is turning your back on the suffering of billions, to secure the approval of two. cowardly is, having done that, watching them die in confusion, unable to do anything about it, after ensuring they lived the lives of chattels and menial servants tasked with waiting on you hand and foot, all the while clutching your "manly nobility" and "duty" to your withered chest.

fortunately for you - and all of us - the Buddha never did that.


d


:good:


:good: Like he said ....
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