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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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acinteyyo
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:46 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Abyss
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Abyss » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:04 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:42 pm

Greetings Abyss,

Thank you for that... very to the point.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby yuuki » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:20 am

In his book, Mr. Ingram states that non-duality models of awakening are "without doubt [his] favorite of them all." As indicated by Mr. Ingram, there aren't specific moral changes in a non-dually awakened person's capabilities (i.e. not being able to lie) or experience (not feeling sensual desire). I've watched youtube videos of a couple other people who claim non-dual awakening, such as Jeff Foster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGqQNUD2Dw

All of these people say that nothing really changes outwardly, except that there is a sort of disassociation from oneself. For my own part I haven't done much thinking about nibbana, but two descriptions stick out to me from the canon: the cutting of the fetters, and completion of one's task in this life.

There is one way of thinking about the fetters: cutting the fetter of ill will means that one no longer experiences ill will. Another way of thinking about it is that ill will can arise, but that one isn't attached (fettered) to the ill will, as if someone else is experiencing the ill will. I don't know for myself. I guess either interpretation sounds both reasonable and unreasonable to me.

As for completing one's task in life, it seems that the Buddha still did things and made mistakes (for example, gave Vinaya rules which were later repealed by himself) after his enlightenment. Mr. Ingram certainly makes it clear that living in the world, and sila practice in general, is still as tough as it was before his awakening.

I have to admit that I'd be a little disappointed if enlightenment was only the kind of disassociation from one's self that is expressed by Jeff Foster (although he seems like a nice person!). It also seems to me that there are far easier ways to non-dual awakening than the Buddhist way.

Mr. Ingram's method of choice is vipassana meditation. I personally am a little hesitant to practice vipassana, because I can't find its source in the suttas and when I consider the method conceptually it seems that it leads precisely to the non-dual awakening mentioned above.

Couldn't the Buddha have just given Right Noting as the path and Non-Duality as his description of nibbana, if things were so simple (and had so few consequences)?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:35 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby yuuki » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:18 am


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Ben
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:20 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:19 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:26 am

:goodpost:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Moggalana
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Moggalana » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:38 am

Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

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Ben
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 am

An excellent post, Mr Billings!
Again you are articulating things I have been thinking about, particularly in regards to the experiences of self-proclaimed ariyans and jhanaists (for want of a better term). I think there is a danger of believing one's experience is what one would like it to be rather than truely examining it, and its characteristics for what it actually is.

I think what you have said aout any experience being something to be observed and let go of, cannot be said enough. Everything should be let go of!Buddhaghosa detailed the ten imperfections of insight (Vism XX, 105), and yet, these imperfections of insight occur to those whose insight is "tender". Those who are actually on the path yet have not attained ariyanship. "For imperfections of insight do not arise either in a noble disciple who has reached penetration [of the truths] or in persons erring in virtue, neglectful of their meditation subject and idlers. They arise only in a clansman who keeps to the right course, devotes himself continuously [to his meditation subject] and is a beginner of insight."

As you know, the Brahmajala Sutta indicates that one's own meditative experiences can be a source for wrong view. And what a profound source of wrong view it can be. Especially given the proclivity of some Buddhists in the west who view the suttas via the prism of their own meditative experiences which is taken as some ultimate arbiter of truth. Move over blind-belief, the blind certainty of one's own believed attainment is particularly pernicious and the view associated with it difficult to remove. Many meditators would be better served by examining their experiences and their view with the same laser-like equanimous observation that they attend to their regular meditation object. And if they did that they would be less enamoured with the rise and fall of dhammas and be moving closer towards the goal.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:30 am

We need another emoticon saying your posting saying that a posting is good, is another good posting. :smile:

I just think that anyone who says they are, probably aren't.

There is a well known Bhikkhu currently resident in The UK who is widely regarded as being an Arahant, But not the slightest of hints ever come from him about that, and he will have no such talk around him. Quite the reverse.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Ben
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:12 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

yuuki
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby yuuki » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:04 pm


Sanghamitta
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:50 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:16 pm


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Sekha
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Daniel Ingram

Postby Sekha » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:57 am

They guy who claims on the web he is an arahant: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.shtml

After reading passages from his book, it seems to me he tries to be to Theravada buddhism what Castaneda was to Mexican shamanism.

What do you think?
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Dan74
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Re: Daniel Ingram

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:23 am

There has been a thread on him already. Some people like him and some don't. I am not a fan because what he understands to be arahatship to me appears very different to what the Buddha taught. In particular the eradication of defilements, he claims to be a misunderstanding, I believe. I think he's also been on E-Sangha to defend his position. Something smacks of a big self there, but I may be wrong.
_/|\_

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Sekha
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Re: Daniel Ingram

Postby Sekha » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:29 pm

is that thread still readable?

his book is downloadable here by the way: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Master ... ersion.pdf
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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RayfieldNeel
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Re: Daniel Ingram

Postby RayfieldNeel » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:27 pm

I've read his book, and have lurked at the forum. (http://www.dharmaoverground.org)
He does manage to be a controversial figure; he does indeed consider himself to be an arhant, and others who have followed in his footsteps at the site will overtly claim their attainments to 1st Path, 2nd Path, etc. He is also somewhat critical of the trappings of the religion..he spends some time in his book spelling out what he finds to be wrong with modern Buddhism.

On the positive side, he does give implicit instructions to folks who may want to know more about the specifics of samatha and vipassana practice, and he seems genuinely read to help when people ask.

As with most things, I take what is helpful, and try not to become attached to the rest. :tongue:


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