Thoughts

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Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:49 am

Tashi delek,

Yes thoughts that is what we know and that is the world where the most of the humans are living in, that is the froozen world (of thoughts)

Now we can eliminate those Bagchags by 2 ways like i did understood:

- One let the thoughts dissolve into the Nature where it came out
- One does see the emptiness aspect of those thoughts

The latter seems to eradicate the thoughts with the roots so here is the karma seems to be realy ended.

What kind of method do you prefer in case of eradicating the famous obsstructing thoughts of the:
mind of ego / karmic mind / the secomd mind / the mind of reincarnation / the mind of the wrong self?

Maybe it would be possible for you to give a brief motivation about your made choice?


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:00 pm

It is hard tp let go of thoughts when we regard them as important.
So, I slow down, and I see that there is nothing in the thoughts that I need to worry about and nothing to be concerned with.
So this way, I see the thoughts are not very important.
I consider how many thoughts I have had in my whole life!
What happened to them?
They are like the scrapes I got on my knees when I was a child.
Do they matter? Were they very important? Where are they now?
Then I can see my thoughts of today in the same way.
Can you find that very moment when a thought starts or when it ends?
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:05 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Yes thoughts that is what we know and that is the world where the most of the humans are living in, that is the froozen world (of thoughts)

Now we can eliminate those Bagchags by 2 ways like i did understood:

- One let the thoughts dissolve into the Nature where it came out
- One does see the emptiness aspect of those thoughts

The latter seems to eradicate the thoughts with the roots so here is the karma seems to be realy ended.

What kind of method do you prefer in case of eradicating the famous obsstructing thoughts of the:
mind of ego / karmic mind / the secomd mind / the mind of reincarnation / the mind of the wrong self?

Maybe it would be possible for you to give a brief motivation about your made choice?


Best wishes
KY


Don't accept or reject thoughts. At the moment, recognize nature of mind.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:08 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Do they matter? Were they very important? Where are they now?



Tashi delek,

Sometimes thoughts / Nyams, can be usefull.
To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.
Can we imagine the impact of bad thoughts? :D

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.


Not to a yogi
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:17 pm

adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.


Not to a yogi



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Please mention to me a Dzogchen Master who is 24 hours a day in the Natural State.
All of my Dzogchen Masters tell me they have frequent thoughts as well blissfull thoughts etc. :shock:
They are also frequent in the NS.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:20 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.


Not to a yogi



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Please mention to me a Dzogchen Master who is 24 hours a day in the Natural State.
All of my Dzogchen Masters tell me they have frequent thoughts as well blissfull thoughts etc. :shock:
They are also frequent in the NS.

Best wishes
KY


Thoughts are part of the natural state. That's why we don't block thoughts. But we don't try to get some good feeling either.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:25 pm

Adhi Nath wrote:
Thoughts are part of the natural state. That's why we don't block thoughts. But we don't try to get some good feeling either.


Tashi delek,

Thoughts are covered by the Natural State or Rigpa so all is Rigpa.
But in the State of illusion one is not aware of Rigpa......

We do not block thoughts as Dzogchenpa because we do not grasp at thoughts

To have good thoughts is ok and this happens spontaneous. Do you ever have had or experienced a positive thought, in case you do it on demand or at wish?


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:13 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Do you ever have had or experienced a positive thought, in case you do it on demand or at wish[/color]


If I did wish for positive experience that would be attachment. I'm not saying I don't have attachments. I'm just saying wishing for bliss or thinking blissful thoughts is not yoga.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:09 pm

adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Do you ever have had or experienced a positive thought, in case you do it on demand or at wish[/color]


If I did wish for positive experience that would be attachment. I'm not saying I don't have attachments. I'm just saying wishing for bliss or thinking blissful thoughts is not yoga.



Tashi delek,

In case of the blissfull thoughts like other thoughts etc. there is spoken of self-emergent. To be in the grasping state or not that is ignorant ego or ego-less-ness or Ma Rigpa or . :namaste:

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:30 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
If I did wish for positive experience that would be attachment. I'm not saying I don't have attachments. I'm just saying wishing for bliss or thinking blissful thoughts is not yoga.


You can wish for good things, positive experiences and so forth yet not be attached to them.
Everybody wants to be able to inhale...but also to exhale.
If you just take a deep breath and never let it go, you die.

One can hope to gain a lot from meditation and various dharma activities
even though not thinking "I want this" when engaged in practices.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:39 am

adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.


Not to a yogi


Maybe if you are trying to avoid positive and negative thoughts you are still trapped by duality.
If you think, "I am a non-attached yogi"
then this is something you want to be,
something that makes you happy
it becomes your bliss
and that is important, isn't it?
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:02 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To have positive, blissfull thoughts is very important in life.


Not to a yogi


Maybe if you are trying to avoid positive and negative thoughts you are still trapped by duality.
If you think, "I am a non-attached yogi"
then this is something you want to be,
something that makes you happy
it becomes your bliss
and that is important, isn't it?


This is a Dzogchen thread, I was responding related to Dzogchen transmission of tregcho. All these things you are saying are fine on a relative level of chit chat bla bla bla.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:04 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:You can wish for good things, positive experiences and so forth yet not be attached to them.


No you can't. Wishing is bondage. A mind conceiving a future is bondage.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby heart » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:41 am

adinatha wrote:
Thoughts are part of the natural state. That's why we don't block thoughts. But we don't try to get some good feeling either.


Thoughts are a part of mind and as you know in Dzogchen it is crucial to make the separation between sem (mind) and rigpa (awareness).

/magnus
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:55 pm

adinatha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:You can wish for good things, positive experiences and so forth yet not be attached to them.


No you can't. Wishing is bondage. A mind conceiving a future is bondage.


Oh I am sorry. I didn't realize the context.

The original posts asks,
"What kind of method do you prefer in case of eradicating the famous obstructing thoughts of the:
mind of ego / karmic mind / the second mind / the mind of reincarnation / the mind of the wrong self?"

And my first thought was, "wishing that all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness,
to be free from suffering and the cause of suffering"

and then that reminded me of famous quote by Shantideva:
"All those who suffer in the world do so because of their desire for their own happiness.
All those happy in the world are so because of their desire for the happiness of others".

So, perhaps the aspiration is not the problem, but that clinging to aspirations and wishes is the problem,
because it produces all sorts of other types of ego trips, seeing oneself as a great Bodhisattva,
or as a good buddhist or whatever.
A skilled yogin, I think, can have these good wishes and then let them go,
understanding that hardship and good fortune are both empty,
A yogin is free to generate or not generate thoughts, because he is not obstructed by them.

So, to rely on, or perpetuate happy and blissful thoughts merely to keep one going is certainly a trap.
If you are saying that, I have no disagreement at all!

So, yes, of course, relying on hopes and wishes for anything can be a trap
If it solidifies the concept of subject and object, of the one wishing for happiness.
Every moment spent dwelling on what might or might be certainly does take one away
from the realization of "now" (which is all that occurs).

Even wanting this conversation to go a certain way is hoping for a favorable future.
That is why I am suggesting that hopes and wishes themselves are not the trap,
but that relying on them, clinging to them and solidifying them are the trap.

What do the Dzogchen teachings suggest?

Thank you!
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Madeliaette » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:14 pm

Personally, I try to visualize the different arisings - I separate thoughts and emotions as either naturally-arisen or karmic-created.
Once distinguished, I send the karmic 'distorted defects' to 'stand in the corner' - where I can be aware of them without being influenced by them.
(I find this method works best for me, as I was already aware of 'thought-thought' etc as being different to 'known-thought' etc before begining Buddhist practice due to previous analysis.)
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Re: Thoughts

Postby adinatha » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:09 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:What do the Dzogchen teachings suggest?


Look at a thought. It has no color or shape.

Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud
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Re: Thoughts

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:38 pm

adinatha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:What do the Dzogchen teachings suggest?


Look at a thought. It has no color or shape.

Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud


Are you sure that what is taught is that
A thought has no color or shape ,
or that a thought has no fixed (permanent) color or shape?
If there is a thought of a red ball, doesn't the thought have the shape and color of a red ball?

My understanding is that a thought has no intrinsic color or shape
just as a mirror is not like a portrait painting.
and that thoughts are seen for their emptiness
but they arise as this or that appearance, just as reflections occur in a mirror.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:37 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
adinatha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:What do the Dzogchen teachings suggest?


Look at a thought. It has no color or shape.

Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud


but they arise as this or that appearance, " Just as reflections occur in a mirror"..




Tashi delek,

I am interested in your opinion about the above mentioned "Just as Reflection(s) occur in the mirror".

Question:

- How can here reflections be seen in a mirror?
- What is the role/meaning, of the mirror here?
- Where do the reflections come from?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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