Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:58 am

username wrote:
heart wrote:Please feel free to explain what Rinpoche been adding? I have no idea what you consider new in Rinpoche's commentary.

/magnus


So now you know what a commentary means, are you saying his commentary is nothing new and a complete copy of a previous one by someone else?


You wrote:

username wrote:Chokyi Nyima's doesn't cover all and is not as refernced/scholarly but he is a great teacher in that too as usual and almost a complete great new teaching


Obviously because you believed Gyatrul Rinpoches book was a commentary on the same text as Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche commented on in his book. This is not the case and you already admitted your mistake. Now you can't state what it is that is lacking in his commentary nor what the "great new teaching" consist of I am afraid I have to conclude that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:55 am

heart wrote:
username wrote:
heart wrote:Please feel free to explain what Rinpoche been adding? I have no idea what you consider new in Rinpoche's commentary.

/magnus


So now you know what a commentary means, are you saying his commentary is nothing new and a complete copy of a previous one by someone else?


You wrote:

username wrote:Chokyi Nyima's doesn't cover all and is not as refernced/scholarly but he is a great teacher in that too as usual and almost a complete great new teaching


Obviously because you believed Gyatrul Rinpoches book was a commentary on the same text as Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche commented on in his book. This is not the case and you already admitted your mistake. Now you can't state what it is that is lacking in his commentary nor what the "great new teaching" consist of I am afraid I have to conclude that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

/magnus


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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:32 pm

This particular book by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche should be read by people new to Tibetan Buddhism as well as more seasoned practitioners as it is very special in two major ways.

magnus,
The subject is the same by Karma Chagme and is merely more elaborated in the other root text and two volumes as Wallace/Gyatrul explain. Also I explained apart from that elaboration, there is a preliminary and a supplementary chapter added by him too. He is not talking about Madhyamika or even a much focused different or even near subject, but expanding on the same precise subject.

On your question: I believe this commentary of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, about %98 of the book text apart from the root text, is an original commentary. You said his commentary is nothing new! If so, whose has he copied and can you quote the author and title of that text?
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:23 pm

username wrote:This particular book by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche should be read by people new to Tibetan Buddhism as well as more seasoned practitioners as it is very special in two major ways.

magnus,
The subject is the same by Karma Chagme and is merely more elaborated in the other root text and two volumes as Wallace/Gyatrul explain. Also I explained apart from that elaboration, there is a preliminary and a supplementary chapter added by him too. He is not talking about Madhyamika or even a much focused different or even near subject, but expanding on the same precise subject.

On your question: I believe this commentary of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, about %98 of the book text apart from the root text, is an original commentary. You said his commentary is nothing new! If so, whose has he copied and can you quote the author and title of that text?


I said in my orginal answer that the texts were on the same subject, check above yourself. Khenpo Karthar Rinpoches text is a lot more elaborated than the Gyatrul/Wallace book.

My question to you is still what it is that is lacking in his commentary and what the "great new teaching" consist of?
The way you define "great new teaching" above makes every commentary a "great new teaching" so that means that you define the Gyatrul/Wallace book and the ChNN teaching is also a "great new teaching"? In that case you can just use the word "commentary" as it covers all. Also please define what is lacking according to your understanding?

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:57 pm

I explained it is a more elaborate root text version and commentary in the two volumes plus the two extra chapters. So it covers more ground.

Not every commentary is a "great new teaching" but just a new teaching. I read a few years a go that at the time of Chinese invasion it is estimated there were about 560,000 unique folios in existence in Tibet. Most were actually people debating each other or commentaries or commentaries on commentaries and so on. A certain percentage of that was a waste of time. I am sure there must have been repetitions and near copies too but commentaries on the whole are unique and a new teaching and not necessarily all are great or good or unmistaken.

As to why I think this text by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche is great: I used to recommend Reggie Ray's two famous books to people new to TB (Blue one on basics/philosophy to be read first then the red on vajrayana). I am not a fan of what he has been doing recently but those two are classics for the purpose of teaching newcomers and they are so because they evolved out of his classes over many years. However since I read this book by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche I recommend this to such people before Ray's. There are two reasons. One is that apart from the traditional oral style of commentary (this was transcribed by Erik from seminars too IIRC) it encapsulates the whole dharma. From basic buddhism to basic TB and Vajrayana to Mahamudra/Dzogchen. Granted it is not the lenght of the two larger books by Ray and doesn't cover that much in detail but in a way all the main definitions of the whole path are interdispersed in the marvelous commentary in precise pithy summaries.

I rarely read any book more than once but this book (plus his Indisputable Truth & Present Fresh Wakefulness - not read Bardo guidebook) and his half-brother's Tsoknyi Rinpoche's books I read twice and their fathers' books more than twice. All those are basically more narrower in focus and specialized (TUR books are simply miraculous) but this one gives the whole path, soups to nuts, unlike any other book in pithy instructions. I still recommend these three books to beginners and they then can research more on whatever parts they have interest or karmic connections with (various philosophies/Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen). The second reason is that like his own and brother and father's books he is actually pointing out the nature of mind very well in a simple way the whole time. That is basically TUR's great rare style they carry on with unique ease.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:59 pm

username wrote:I explained it is a more elaborate root text version and commentary in the two volumes plus the two extra chapters. So it covers more ground.

Not every commentary is a "great new teaching" but just a new teaching. I read a few years a go that at the time of Chinese invasion it is estimated there were about 560,000 unique folios in existence in Tibet. Most were actually people debating each other or commentaries or commentaries on commentaries and so on. A certain percentage of that was a waste of time. I am sure there must have been repetitions and near copies too but commentaries on the whole are unique and a new teaching and not necessarily all are great or good or unmistaken.

As to why I think this text by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche is great: I used to recommend Reggie Ray's two famous books to people new to TB (Blue one on basics/philosophy to be read first then the red on vajrayana). I am not a fan of what he has been doing recently but those two are classics for the purpose of teaching newcomers and they are so because they evolved out of his classes over many years. However since I read this book by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche I recommend this to such people before Ray's. There are two reasons. One is that apart from the traditional oral style of commentary (this was transcribed by Erik from seminars too IIRC) it encapsulates the whole dharma. From basic buddhism to basic TB and Vajrayana to Mahamudra/Dzogchen. Granted it is not the lenght of the two larger books by Ray and doesn't cover that much in detail but in a way all the main definitions of the whole path are interdispersed in the marvelous commentary in precise pithy summaries.

I rarely read any book more than once but this book (plus his Indisputable Truth & Present Fresh Wakefulness - not read Bardo guidebook) and his half-brother's Tsoknyi Rinpoche's books I read twice and their fathers' books more than twice. All those are basically more narrower in focus and specialized (TUR books are simply miraculous) but this one gives the whole path, soups to nuts, unlike any other book in pithy instructions. I still recommend these three books to beginners and they then can research more on whatever parts they have interest or karmic connections with (various philosophies/Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen). The second reason is that like his own and brother and father's books he is actually pointing out the nature of mind very well in a simple way the whole time. That is basically TUR's great rare style they carry on with unique ease.


Hmm, considering the number of Guru's we share your earlier jumping up and down on every post I made seems most strange.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:17 pm

Not really, I was just doing some propaganda for ChNNR :D Also wait for the youngish Mingyur Tulku to truly shine, he hasn't even started. He is the amazing terton in person who was a direct great emanation of Guru Rinpoche. TUR yangsi is unmistakably himself too and I predict after a couple of decades of training and retreat in Asia, he will mainly reside in the States as a great dharma king. Maybe he will open up Colorado.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:49 pm

username wrote:Not really, I was just doing some propaganda for ChNNR :D Also wait for the youngish Mingyur Tulku to truly shine, he hasn't even started. He is the amazing terton in person who was a direct great emanation of Guru Rinpoche. TUR yangsi is unmistakably himself too and I predict after a couple of decades of training and retreat in Asia, he will mainly reside in the States as a great dharma king. Maybe he will open up Colorado.


Strange way to do propganda for ChNNR I must say.

I fully agree about Mingyur Rinpoche of course. I did an amazing three-day course with him last September. Anyone doubting the natural state or wanting to get direct introduction should go and see him, he got a real talent for that.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:54 pm

...of course, you're going to have to wait three years if you want teachings from Yongay Mingyur Rinpoche. He's just entered an extended retreat.

(I agree, though--a Great Lama and lord of refuge).
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:57 pm

heart wrote:
username wrote:Not really, I was just doing some propaganda for ChNNR :D Also wait for the youngish Mingyur Tulku to truly shine, he hasn't even started. He is the amazing terton in person who was a direct great emanation of Guru Rinpoche. TUR yangsi is unmistakably himself too and I predict after a couple of decades of training and retreat in Asia, he will mainly reside in the States as a great dharma king. Maybe he will open up Colorado.


Strange way to do propganda for ChNNR I must say.

I fully agree about Mingyur Rinpoche of course. I did an amazing three-day course with him last September. Anyone doubting the natural state or wanting to get direct introduction should go and see him, he got a real talent for that.

/magnus


I didn't jump on any posts. Also I haven't read half your posts in threads I am not interested. Just basic defending of one's gurus.

Cone,
It's a wanderer's retreat. I'm sure he'll visit Bhutan and Sikkim.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:06 pm

username wrote:
heart wrote:
Strange way to do propganda for ChNNR I must say.

I fully agree about Mingyur Rinpoche of course. I did an amazing three-day course with him last September. Anyone doubting the natural state or wanting to get direct introduction should go and see him, he got a real talent for that.

/magnus


I didn't jump on any posts. Also I haven't read half your posts in threads I am not interested. Just basic defending of one's gurus.



Never attacked ChNN or any other Guru you seem to value so that also makes no sense. If you ever get such strange ideas again, that I am attacking your Guru, just ask me and I will explain what I mean to the best of my capacity. In this way we might avoid many unnecessary discussions.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:14 pm

heart wrote:
username wrote:
heart wrote:
Strange way to do propganda for ChNNR I must say.

I fully agree about Mingyur Rinpoche of course. I did an amazing three-day course with him last September. Anyone doubting the natural state or wanting to get direct introduction should go and see him, he got a real talent for that.

/magnus


I didn't jump on any posts. Also I haven't read half your posts in threads I am not interested. Just basic defending of one's gurus.



Never attacked ChNN or any other Guru you seem to value so that also makes no sense. If you ever get such strange ideas again, that I am attacking your Guru, just ask me and I will explain what I mean to the best of my capacity. In this way we might avoid many unnecessary discussions.

/magnus


Have a good week magnus.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:21 pm

username wrote:
Have a good week magnus.


I up you on that one, have a good life username.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:22 pm

username wrote:Cone,
It's a wanderer's retreat. I'm sure he'll visit Bhutan and Sikkim.


Yes, but will he be teaching? I gathered not.....
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:36 pm

heart wrote:
username wrote:
Have a good week magnus.


I up you on that one, have a good life username.

/magnus


That's nice of you, same to you, thanks.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:39 pm

username wrote:
heart wrote:
username wrote:
Have a good week magnus.


I up you on that one, have a good life username.

/magnus


That's nice of you, same to you, thanks.


You are most welcome.

/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:42 pm

conebeckham wrote:
username wrote:Cone,
It's a wanderer's retreat. I'm sure he'll visit Bhutan and Sikkim.


Yes, but will he be teaching? I gathered not.....


I think not, from his goodbye letter:

In my early years, I trained in a number of different ways. The time I spent with my father involved rigorous meditation training, but I was not in strict retreat, in the sense that I met other people and could come and go freely. My three-year retreat at Sherab Ling Monastery, on the other hand, was held in complete isolation. A small group of us lived in an enclosed compound and didn't have any contact with the outside world until the retreat ended. These are two forms of practice, but they are not the only ways. As demonstrated by the great yogi Milarepa, there is also a tradition of wandering from place to place, staying in remote caves and sacred sites with no plans or fixed agenda, just an unswerving commitment to the path of awakening. This is the type of retreat that I will be practicing over the coming years.

This tradition isn't very common these days. My third main teacher, the great Dzogchen yogi Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, was one of the few recent masters to practice in this way. Khen Rinpoche practiced in closed retreats when he was younger, but later he took up the life of a wandering yogi. He completely dropped his normal life and activities. Nobody knew where he was or what he was doing. He spent time meditating in isolated caves and other places where the great masters of times past, such as Milarepa and Longchenpa practiced, and at one point he even lived among the Hindu sadhus of India. His story is a perfect example of a modern, carefree yogi.

More recently, Tai Situ Rinpoche, the last of my four main teachers, talked about meditating in mountain retreats during a teaching he gave in 2009. Over four months, Rinpoche passed on the lineage of an important meditation text called The Ocean of the Definitive Meaning. This is one of the main instruction manuals used by meditators in the Kagyu lineage. I mention my teachers here because their wisdom and compassion has nurtured my desire to make retreat a focal point of my life. My father and Saljey Rinpoche encouraged and supported my first experiences in retreat, while Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche and Tai Situ Rinpoche inspired me to embark on the path of a wandering yogi. Like a tiny firefly in the midst of the sun's radiance, I can never hope to compare to my precious teachers, but without their example and inspiration, I would not have followed this path.


/magnus
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby username » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:44 pm

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Last edited by username on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:45 pm

Right, that's what I gathered as well, Magnus...I guess we'll just have to see what happens, eh?
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Re: Present course with Nanmkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Postby heart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:47 pm

conebeckham wrote:Right, that's what I gathered as well, Magnus...I guess we'll just have to see what happens, eh?


Yeah, I been missing him a little every day since September last year. :smile:

/magnus
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