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 Post subject: Another rebirth thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:18 am 
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What do you think? What transmigrates?

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:29 am 
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LauraJ wrote:
What do you think? What transmigrates?

:namaste:


Poorly worded question.
Rather: "Dependent on what is there transmigration."

Likewise for almost any Buddhist position, it must be answered in terms of dependent origination.
eg. "What sees?" Poorly worded question. Rather: "Dependent on what is there seeing?"
etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:39 am 
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Huifeng wrote:
LauraJ wrote:
What do you think? What transmigrates?

:namaste:


Poorly worded question.
Rather: "Dependent on what is there transmigration."

Likewise for almost any Buddhist position, it must be answered in terms of dependent origination.
eg. "What sees?" Poorly worded question. Rather: "Dependent on what is there seeing?"
etc.


Thanks :twothumbsup:

Dependent upon what is there transmigration? Dependent upon what is there there post mortem birth?

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:50 am 
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Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Dependent upon what is there transmigration? Dependent upon what is there there post mortem birth?


I don't know - I don't recall being cognizant of the process. ;)

I agree that "dependent upon..." is that way to go about asking the question, but also wary that this might lead to a discussion on the twelve-point dependent origination sequence as a model of transmigration, rather than as the model of suffering I believe it is intended to represent.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:53 am 
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Well yes, dependent origination immediately comes to mind :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:01 am 
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Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Well yes, dependent origination immediately comes to mind :)


Well at this point, I'll go into the corner in a huff. :lol:

Seriously though, jati understood as mental or experiential birth needn't exclude what we often call "rebirth". It's just that that's not all it is... it's not just some 'once in a lifetime' phenomenon.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:03 am 
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Ah, Retro is setting up a healthy debate.

Retro doesn't jati happen repeatedly, both in the moment-to-moment experience and after the skandhas break up?

Best,
Laura


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:05 am 
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Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Retro doesn't jati happen repeatedly, both in the moment-to-moment experience and after the skandhas break up?


From my reading of the suttas that would appear to be the case.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:08 am 
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retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Retro doesn't jati happen repeatedly, both in the moment-to-moment experience and after the skandhas break up?


From my reading of the suttas that would appear to be the case.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Well we're in agreement. Darn, what sort of debate was that? ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:11 am 
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Greetings,

It's good it wasn't a debate!

:tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:16 am 
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Yes, it is good Retro :)

So under what conditions do we transmigrate from one birth to the next?

Best,
Laura


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:29 am 
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Greetings Laura,

"We" don't...

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:33 am 
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retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Laura,

"We" don't...

Metta,
Retro. :)


That takes us back to my improperly formed first question!

Oh dear :smile:

Best,
Laura


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:37 am 
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Greetings,

The rebirth of the wrongly worded question.

:rolling:

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:43 am 
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Hahahaha :twothumbsup: :spy:

Best,
Laura


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:44 am 
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Okay I'm really trying to suck you in Retro. Riddle me this, why don't you use the three lives theory?

Best,
Laura


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:49 am 
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LauraJ wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
LauraJ wrote:
What do you think? What transmigrates?

:namaste:


Poorly worded question.
Rather: "Dependent on what is there transmigration."

Likewise for almost any Buddhist position, it must be answered in terms of dependent origination.
eg. "What sees?" Poorly worded question. Rather: "Dependent on what is there seeing?"
etc.


Thanks :twothumbsup:

Dependent upon what is there transmigration? Dependent upon what is there there post mortem birth?

:namaste:


Dependent on becoming (bhava), there is post mortem birth (jati).

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:51 am 
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retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Dependent upon what is there transmigration? Dependent upon what is there there post mortem birth?


I don't know - I don't recall being cognizant of the process. ;)

I agree that "dependent upon..." is that way to go about asking the question, but also wary that this might lead to a discussion on the twelve-point dependent origination sequence as a model of transmigration, rather than as the model of suffering I believe it is intended to represent.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Considering that birth, aging, sickness and death are the first four of the eight main forms of duhkha, and that other limbs (eg. vedana, etc.) cover the rest, what is the difference?

The bodhisattva sought a way out of duhkha, a way out of rebirth.
With no rebirth, where is there duhkha?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:52 am 
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retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Retro doesn't jati happen repeatedly, both in the moment-to-moment experience and after the skandhas break up?


From my reading of the suttas that would appear to be the case.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Please cite a Mahayana source.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:01 am 
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Greetings Laura,

LauraJ wrote:
Riddle me this, why don't you use the three lives theory?


I've only got a few minutes just now so this might be a bit scrappy... I'll highlight some main points that come to mind and we can take up whichever parts interest you.

* The Dhamma is to be known and experienced in the 'here and now' and it does not require the ability to see past lives in order to attain enlightenment

* Consciousness in the suttas is not a stand-alone thing. It's always connected to its object (e.g. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness) and not the rebirth-linking consciousness you hear about in the post-sutta material

* Likewise, suffering is experienced here-and-now, but when consigned to a future existence, it's observability in accordance with the framework is impossible (unless you do a complicated join-the-dots exercise as per the commentaries)

* As per the Simsapa Sutta, the Buddha taught suffering and its cessation (not transmigration)

* Misinterpretation of the term jati, which does not mean 'rebirth'. It can mean 'birth', but even the Abhidhamma understands jati to be a 'momentary' thing, rather than a 'lifetime' thing.

Well, that's the few minutes.

:soapbox:

Metta,
Retro. :)

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