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The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux - Dhamma Wheel

The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:24 am

Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant? If, yes, based upon what?

What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby Bankei » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:19 am

Hi Tilt,

Sorry, I didn't see this before asking a similar question here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3199
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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:23 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:32 am


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:29 am

A couple of things that are worth noting about ordination lineages. First is that belonging to an ordination lineage does not necessarily mean one belongs to a specific doctrinal lineage.

Secondly, most splits in ordination lineages were not schisms, but rather happened simply because of distance. There being no central papal-type authority in Buddhism, given the vastness of anciet India where groups are going to be separated from each other, it not surprising that various lineage developed. Also, the differences in the Vinayas are fairly minor, and are certainly not in the major rules.

Who is to say that a particular lineage does not trace itself back to the Buddha?

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:38 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:41 am


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby seanpdx » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:11 pm


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby Paññāsikhara » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:11 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:04 am

um isn't at least part of the classical thinking that the other monks aren't monks because of poor grammar? then come some heretical views and what not :tongue:

not to beat a dead horse here but Ven Sujato's sects and sectarianism covers this from the Mahavihara Theravada POV. he also mentions that Dharmagupta (the monk), although not ordained in the Mahavihara lineage was considered a highly respected thera by them (so why all the fuss over his lineage then?), and then there's good old Buddhaghosa ordained in India by who knows what lineage yet still considered Theravada...
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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby Paññāsikhara » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:11 am

Even the very issue of whether or not in ancient times bhikkhu/nis could / would travel and practice among a range of different "sects" / "traditions" / "lineages" or not is in dispute.

Many have argued that they did not. But often such arguments have been based on heavily sectarian literature. More broader research suggests that this practice was very common.

In india, I wonder how much Brahmanic ideas of caste influenced such things, the idea of purity through gotra and kula, the idea of purity through ritual - transferred to purity of ordination lineage and purity through ordination rite. I'm going to finish off Bronkhorst's book before going further with this, but the more I look beyond the Buddhist tradition alone, the more I think that there is something in this on a number of fronts.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:30 am


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby chownah » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:49 pm


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:55 pm


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:35 pm

If all lineages trace back to the Buddha (and it appears that they do), then in regard to bhikkhuni ordinations, the lineage or 'yana' should be moot.

There are probably not any two people on earth who agree on everything on every single issue; not husbands & wives, best friends, etc. The monastics on the chain of any lineage cannot be expected to all think alike and therefore any lineage tracing back to the Buddha is valid, certainly for acting as a preceptor.

Being called Theravada might be one thing, but for simply acting as a preceptor, such as using some Mahayana nuns in some cases to ordain a Theravada bhikkhuni? I see nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.
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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby chownah » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:56 pm


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby chownah » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:50 pm

This definitely does not answer the question but I just stumbled into this and thought it might be appropriate anyway.....since this is the dhammic free for all....titled "Validation":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao

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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:28 pm


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Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:47 pm



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