Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.


Kunzang Dechen Lingpa emphasized that these practices were really quite important.


But as you said it's a very different practice in the sense of one is working with the tigle descending, retaining, reversing and spreading. Right? In Nyingthig, the four blisses and bliss clarity and non-thought are at the moment. Again, it's a preliminary, right? If you have been introduced to rigpa, what's the use, really?

In Nyinthig, the preliminary practice of cultivating bliss in the trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality is consort practice, and Longchenpa devotes an entire text to it alone in Lama Yangthig.


I'm curious whether Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu has karmamudra.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:28 pm

Pero wrote:
adinatha wrote:Not contradictory. What he explained is that ordinary people have too many ordinary attachments. If the consort practice is not performed where both yogi and yogini have the pure vision of being nondual Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, if they have even one moment of dualistic grasping, they just accumulate negative karma, and blessings of a nondual union are lost. For this reason, it takes a high practitioner who have the ability to rest in nonduality in any condition to accomplish this practice.

Well following this is that consort practice is for people of high capacity, not the opposite like you said before and what you're saying in your last post too. :smile:


I'm sorry I don't understand you. I reported my teacher said consort is for 10th bhumi.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:35 pm

adinatha wrote:
Pero wrote:
adinatha wrote:Not contradictory. What he explained is that ordinary people have too many ordinary attachments. If the consort practice is not performed where both yogi and yogini have the pure vision of being nondual Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, if they have even one moment of dualistic grasping, they just accumulate negative karma, and blessings of a nondual union are lost. For this reason, it takes a high practitioner who have the ability to rest in nonduality in any condition to accomplish this practice.

Well following this is that consort practice is for people of high capacity, not the opposite like you said before and what you're saying in your last post too. :smile:


I'm sorry I don't understand you. I reported my teacher said consort is for 10th bhumi.

Yes but you keep saying it's a low level practice. Why would someone on the 10th bhumi have to practice a low level practice?
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:38 pm

Pero wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Pero wrote:Well following this is that consort practice is for people of high capacity, not the opposite like you said before and what you're saying in your last post too. :smile:


I'm sorry I don't understand you. I reported my teacher said consort is for 10th bhumi.

Yes but you keep saying it's a low level practice. Why would someone on the 10th bhumi have to practice a low level practice?


It's conditional. It's a low level practice, unless you have the capacity of a 10th bhumi, then it's a high level practice that swiftly leads to buddhahood, hence why Milarepa, etc., practiced it, but not until a late stage in their practice. Also in the Kalachakra tradition, karmamudra doesn't come into play until one has mastered high level yogic feats.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:46 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.


Kunzang Dechen Lingpa emphasized that these practices were really quite important.


But as you said it's a very different practice in the sense of one is working with the tigle descending, retaining, reversing and spreading. Right? In Nyingthig, the four blisses and bliss clarity and non-thought are at the moment. Again, it's a preliminary, right? If you have been introduced to rigpa, what's the use, really?



Actually, in the Nyinthig practice, one is working with the four blisses, descending, etc., just like the normal completion stage practice.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:46 pm

adinatha wrote:It's conditional. It's a low level practice, unless you have the capacity of a 10th bhumi, then it's a high level practice that swiftly leads to buddhahood, hence why Milarepa, etc., practiced it, but not until a late stage in their practice. Also in the Kalachakra tradition, karmamudra doesn't come into play until one has mastered high level yogic feats.

Ah sure, why didn't you say you mean it like that in the first place? :D
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:56 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.


Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.


I should add, Drubpon Rinpoche also said Tilopa is the one who expressed to Naropa that karmamudra is a low level practice. Kagyu are not saying Gampopa monkified tantra. Rather, they are saying from the onset, Tilopa downgraded karmamudra and upgraded samayamudra and mahamudra. Also that this has its foundation in Saraha through Maitripa as well.


Tilopa must have thought that Naropa was a low-level practitioner then, since Naropa practiced karmamudra and so on. Actually, we know that Tilopa's attitude toward Naropa was not that great since Tilopa told Naropa that he would not achieve supreme siddhi.

I think the Kadampas "monkified" Vajrayāna.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.


I should add, Drubpon Rinpoche also said Tilopa is the one who expressed to Naropa that karmamudra is a low level practice. Kagyu are not saying Gampopa monkified tantra. Rather, they are saying from the onset, Tilopa downgraded karmamudra and upgraded samayamudra and mahamudra. Also that this has its foundation in Saraha through Maitripa as well.


Tilopa must have thought that Naropa was a low-level practitioner then, since Naropa practiced karmamudra and so on.

I think the Kadampas "monkified" Vajrayāna.


Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:07 pm

adinatha wrote:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?


I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?


I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:30 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?


I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.



Basically, heat on the tantric path of application is when one starts engaging in conduct such as wearing bone ornaments, etc.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.



Basically, heat on the tantric path of application is when one starts engaging in conduct such as wearing bone ornaments, etc.


That sounds pretty analogous.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:11 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?


I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.



Peter Alan Roberts notes that the later Kagyu tradition scrubbed the names of Milarepa's consorts. He also points out that sexual yogas were such an important part of Milarepa's transmission that Rechungpa refused to teach monks.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.



Peter Alan Roberts notes that the later Kagyu tradition scrubbed the names of Milarepa's consorts. He also points out that sexual yogas were such an important part of Milarepa's transmission that Rechungpa refused to teach monks.


Rechungpa's lineage which includes this stuff when to Drukpa Kagyu, AFAIK. You can get these docs and read them. Known as "Rechungpa's Hearing Lineage."

The problem I see with the path of desire is lineage. I don't think folks have lineage that combines the path of desire with the lineage of blessings and the lineage of ultimate realization. At least, not in the Kagyu/Gelukpa/Sakya world. IMHO. My information is that the Jonanpa's have kept all these lineages alive in their Kalachakra tradition.

Many people don't realize that just because cool practice X is done somewhere (which is just the teaching lineage), doesn't mean that teaching lineage is combined with the lineages of practice blessings and ultimate realization. These three have to be combined in one teacher or the practice has no power any more.

For the most part, the sarma path of desire is a dead lineage. The Dzogchen practice with sexual contact is a different animal. IMHO. The sarma lineages of blessing and ultimate realization are a dying animal. You can only look to Drukpa, Drikung and to some extent Karma Kagyu to get a real full fledged sarma lineage of transmission, blessing and realization. This cannot be overstated enough. Again, Dzogchen is a different animal.

But... What the Kagyus have done with the path of liberation is most excellent indeed. The traditions of instruction, blessing and realization are very fresh and high potency. Especially with respect to Drukpa and Drikung, they are first and foremost retreat lineages. There are so many Milarepa-like yogis over there who don't have much scholarly knowledge, but whose realization is very high level and pure.

Look what happened to Rechungpa's lineage. It's basically dead too. Rechungpa did not have the karmic power to create something vast and long lasting, even though he spent his whole life with Milarepa. Gampopa who was with Mila for only one year, went on to establish enormous lineages which is awesome. So the Kagyu position makes sense, that Mila foresaw that Rechungpa wasn't going to be a big guru, and gave his lineage of blessing and ultimate realization to Gampopa who was peerless in his morality, trust and faith. Because he was a monk, that base gave him the credibility in the world make Kagyu huge, while also preserving the power the makes Buddhas. It all makes sense because Kagyu was connected always with ex-Nalanda abbots. It's only natural for that institutional energy to carry on.

Having said that, if I were to look to the path of desire I would go Dzogchen, because all the lineages are complete there. Guru Rinpoche is the real guru of the path of desire and his method of hiding treasures for his reincarnated disciples to find in the future is an amazing way to keep it all going. Guru Rinpoche, mahasiddhas etc. were out in the wild. Their totally mind-blowing systems flow from that origin.

Besides, the path of liberation is the best path anyway. It really is the most secure, fast and easy way to get to the end.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:57 pm

adinatha wrote:
Rechungpa's lineage which includes this stuff when to Drukpa Kagyu, AFAIK. You can get these docs and read them. Known as "Rechungpa's Hearing Lineage."



I was responding to your assertion that after Tilopa, karmamudra practice was not important. But this is clearly false given all the lineages from Tilopa that are present in Sakya.


The problem I see with the path of desire is lineage. I don't think folks have lineage that combines the path of desire with the lineage of blessings and the lineage of ultimate realization. At least, not in the Kagyu/Gelukpa/Sakya world. IMHO.


Quite alive and well in Sakya and Nyingma. Sakya lineages in particular have been preserved by the Khon family who have always been lay people.

For the most part, the sarma path of desire is a dead lineage.


Not in Sakya.

You can only look to Drukpa, Drikung and to some extent Karma Kagyu to get a real full fledged sarma lineage of transmission, blessing and realization.


Or, you can receive Lamdre or the Sakya Cakrasamvara and Yogini transmissions, where this practice is alive and well.

Look what happened to Rechungpa's lineage. It's basically dead too. Rechungpa did not have the karmic power to create something vast and long lasting, even though he spent his whole life with Milarepa.


What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.



Gampopa who was with Mila for only one year, went on to establish enormous lineages which is awesome. So the Kagyu position makes sense, that Mila foresaw that Rechungpa wasn't going to be a big guru, and gave his lineage of blessing and ultimate realization to Gampopa who was peerless in his morality, trust and faith.


Its pretty clear to me that Kagyus white washed tantra ala Kadampa.

You can believe Tsang Nyon Heruka's Bio of Mila. I don't.

I am not saying that Gampopa was not an important student of Milarepa. He is definitely the founder of the Kagyu school. But he was not Milrepa's most important student. Mila's most important student, Rechungpa, was vilified by his monastic competition.

http://www.amazon.com/Biographies-Rechu ... ap_title_0

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Rechungpa's lineage which includes this stuff when to Drukpa Kagyu, AFAIK. You can get these docs and read them. Known as "Rechungpa's Hearing Lineage."



I was responding to your assertion that after Tilopa, karmamudra practice was not important. But this is clearly false given all the lineages from Tilopa that are present in Sakya.


I see.


The problem I see with the path of desire is lineage. I don't think folks have lineage that combines the path of desire with the lineage of blessings and the lineage of ultimate realization. At least, not in the Kagyu/Gelukpa/Sakya world. IMHO.


Quite alive and well in Sakya and Nyingma. Sakya lineages in particular have been preserved by the Khon family who have always been lay people. [/quote]

Perhaps it's just spin but the Kagyu don't think the Sakya have the ultimate realization lineage anymore. Perhaps the Khon family is an exception.

For the most part, the sarma path of desire is a dead lineage.


Not in Sakya.


That's good to know. Again, the issue with not being a yogi lineage anymore.

You can only look to Drukpa, Drikung and to some extent Karma Kagyu to get a real full fledged sarma lineage of transmission, blessing and realization.


Or, you can receive Lamdre or the Sakya Cakrasamvara and Yogini transmissions, where this practice is alive and well.


I'm skeptical. But open-minded. Just my observation is that the Kagyu really have amazing yogis. They are not whitewashed.

Look what happened to Rechungpa's lineage. It's basically dead too. Rechungpa did not have the karmic power to create something vast and long lasting, even though he spent his whole life with Milarepa.


What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.


So then where's his sadhu lineage? Indian sadhus have really old lineages.

Gampopa who was with Mila for only one year, went on to establish enormous lineages which is awesome. So the Kagyu position makes sense, that Mila foresaw that Rechungpa wasn't going to be a big guru, and gave his lineage of blessing and ultimate realization to Gampopa who was peerless in his morality, trust and faith.


Its pretty clear to me that Kagyus white washed tantra ala Kadampa. [

You can believe Tsang Nyon Heruka's Bio of Mila. I don't.

I am not saying that Gampopa was not an important student of Milarepa. He is definitely the founder of the Kagyu school. But he was not Milrepa's most important student. Mila's most important student, Rechungpa, was vilified by his monastic competition.

http://www.amazon.com/Biographies-Rechu ... ap_title_0

N


So what? He didn't have enough power to grow his own lineage. To hell what the monks say, even if he was vilified if he had the mojo he could have carried on with his repa lineage. Nyingmapas have repa masters still.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:29 pm

adinatha wrote:
Perhaps it's just spin but the Kagyu don't think the Sakya have the ultimate realization lineage anymore.



Sectarian bullshit.



What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.


So then where's his sadhu lineage? Indian sadhus have really old lineages.


The repa lineage still exists in Kagyu. Anyway, Tibet is not India. And, there is no sadhu lineage older than 1500 years. I doubt many are any older than three or four hundred years.

So what? He didn't have enough power to grow his own lineage. To hell what the monks say, even if he was vilified if he had the mojo he could have carried on with his repa lineage. Nyingmapas have repa masters still.


Nyingmapas never had repas. That is strictly a Kagyu thing.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Perhaps it's just spin but the Kagyu don't think the Sakya have the ultimate realization lineage anymore.



Sectarian bullshit.


If it is, I'm sorry. I'm not afraid to call it like I see it. Not all lineages are equal, I'm sorry to say. That's just a fact.


What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.


So then where's his sadhu lineage? Indian sadhus have really old lineages.


The repa lineage still exists in Kagyu. Anyway, Tibet is not India. And, there is no sadhu lineage older than 1500 years. I doubt many are any older than three or four hundred years.


There is a Prajapati lineage 2500 years. Anyway who has the repa lineage in Kagyu? I think Drukpa. It think it's small now.

So what? He didn't have enough power to grow his own lineage. To hell what the monks say, even if he was vilified if he had the mojo he could have carried on with his repa lineage. Nyingmapas have repa masters still.


Nyingmapas never had repas. That is strictly a Kagyu thing.

N


They have the functional equivalent. I know of wandering Nyingmapa yogis.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:35 pm

adinatha wrote:
If it is, I'm sorry. I'm not afraid to call it like I see it. Not all lineages are equal, I'm sorry to say. That's just a fact.


All four lineages have produced masters of high realization and will continue to. Somehow, Kagyus and Nyingmapas always propagate this bullshit that their lineages produce more realized persons. What a bunch of crap.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
If it is, I'm sorry. I'm not afraid to call it like I see it. Not all lineages are equal, I'm sorry to say. That's just a fact.


All four lineages have produced masters of high realization and will continue to. Somehow, Kagyus and Nyingmapas always propagate this bullshit that their lineages produce more realized persons. What a bunch of crap.

N


KDL said exactly that. Nyingma and Kagyu produce more realized masters. It's not a bunch of crap. There is objective reality to it. Not all lineages have three-year retreat in conditions of a place like Lapchi or Mt. Kailash. I'm talking strict 18 hr day retreats under the guidance of a psychic realized master in a blessing lineage and in a power place. That shit is rare. There are levels and degrees to the power in these lineages. I don't care to play the ecumenical game. Dharma is a factual real results oriented deal. Lineages need to be evaluated on a factual level. Dharma's not religion. It's not an opinion. It is subject to testing. Realization requires dedication to practice. Gelukpas are dedicated to philosophy and politics. Only a few lineages are absolutely dedicated to practice. All the book knowledge is useless. When the mind is realized that itself is the book of unending dharma scriptures.
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