Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:09 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Perhaps yours doesn't. Ours does. And my teacher got another outline of the pith instructions from His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche and theirs has the same breakdown.



The inferior intellect thing is in a previous section.


The verses are ordered differently in the various schools.


Not so. The part about the winds is for medium capacity, and karmamudra for inferior capacity.


Then according to you all Indian mahasiddhas are inferior capacity since they all used karmamudra for realization. Tibetan siddhas are somehow superior since the Kadampas discarded it. Even Milarepa and Marpa are inferior, according you, since they used karmamudra for realization.


I'm not making this up. Don't shoot the messenger.

That is not the same thing. Besides, the name Thogal and separating it out from Tregcho is sort of a new fangled invention.


Right, you heard that from me. Still, there is no thogal in the dohas.


I did hear that from you. Then I read that in the Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu that visions and natural state are not practiced separately. Only two of thirty something masters in Zhang Zhung even mention visions.

Why not? Padmavajra was circa 700-800 CE and so was Saraha I.


Padmavakra is mid 9th century -- 150 years after Saraha I. Saraha I did not have a human guru.


No the commentator is presenting it that Saraha was Padmakara's guru. Padmakara is another name for Padmasambhava.

That might be a nice point for discussion, and/or might impact what someone is practicing at lineage X, but I don't agree there are different 'od gsal types.


That's your bad, then.


Not really. Just because a yoga practice has the name 'od sgal, doesn't mean there are different 'od sgal. There is one singular reality.

We have already discussed this. As I pointed out to you, Gyalwa Yangonpa points out that Mahamudra is superior to 'od gsal because in the state of 'od gsal as described in sarma tantras and the six yogas of Naropa, there are no appearances.


'od gsal is being used in different ways as relates to methods. I'm talking beyond two stages here.


Too late to change your tune.


I haven't

This supports what I'm saying.


Not really.


Totally dude.

Dzogchen has been inventive. Then, there's this stuff Saraha says in his Doha.


You are seeing mirages.


Quit talking about the black snake. I mean rope. Re mirages. I don't think so. Seems like a lot of "scriptural authority" is just so-called authority. The experience lineage talks real differnt.

I don't know.


All four schools have the Sahaja Mahamudra lineage. That is why a discussion of it is included in the Vima Nyinthig.

N


Sounds great on paper. In practice, it's impossible Nyingthig offers something above Sahaja Mahamudra, because it encompasses every appearance conditioned and unconditioned. Working with pure appearances is to get to the innate. The innate dissolves all appearances; so there's no advantage to working with some special kind.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:59 pm

adinatha wrote:
Then I read that in the Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu that visions and natural state are not practiced separately. Only two of thirty something masters in Zhang Zhung even mention visions.



I think you are a smart guy, but I also think you jump to unwarranted conclusions. I don't have time to address the rest of your post point for point. In short, you have written many things in it with which I am not in agreement.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:08 pm

adinatha wrote:
All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen?



Method: mahamudra without tantra is just perfection of wisdom.

Method, ultimately, is the most important difference between sutra and tantra.

If you argue that the difference between mahāmudra and perfection of wisdom is guruyoga, I will just respond that guruyoga is a unique method of Annutarayoga tantra.

So it all boils down to method. Likewise, the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra is method. There are also differences in the way the basis is explained and so on, but mostly, the difference is in method. If you are not using Dzogchen methods, you are not practicing Dzogchen. For example, in Kalacakra one works with visions, but it is not the same as thogal, as Dudjom Rinpoche clearly points out in his book.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen?



Method: mahamudra without tantra is just perfection of wisdom.

Method, ultimately, is the most important difference between sutra and tantra.

If you argue that the difference between mahāmudra and perfection of wisdom is guruyoga, I will just respond that guruyoga is a unique method of Annutarayoga tantra.

So it all boils down to method. Likewise, the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra is method. There are also differences in the way the basis is explained and so on, but mostly, the difference is in method. If you are not using Dzogchen methods, you are not practicing Dzogchen. For example, in Kalacakra one works with visions, but it is not the same as thogal, as Dudjom Rinpoche clearly points out in his book.

N


Okay. Thank you for your continued patience and time. How do you explain blessings? They are just method? You've cited dohas which say the innate cannot be taught. The Kagyu teach that the innate can be discovered through blessings.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:33 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen?



Method: mahamudra without tantra is just perfection of wisdom.

Method, ultimately, is the most important difference between sutra and tantra.

If you argue that the difference between mahāmudra and perfection of wisdom is guruyoga, I will just respond that guruyoga is a unique method of Annutarayoga tantra.

So it all boils down to method. Likewise, the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra is method. There are also differences in the way the basis is explained and so on, but mostly, the difference is in method. If you are not using Dzogchen methods, you are not practicing Dzogchen. For example, in Kalacakra one works with visions, but it is not the same as thogal, as Dudjom Rinpoche clearly points out in his book.

N


Okay. Thank you for your continued patience and time. How do you explain blessings? They are just method? You've cited dohas which say the innate cannot be taught. The Kagyu teach that the innate can be discovered through blessings.


The Hevajra Tantra explains it very nicely:

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the innate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru,
time and method, and from one’s merit.


For example, Dombhi Heruka divides the innate into three aspects: cause, method and result.

The cause innate is the nature of the mind.

The method innate is fifteen innate dharmas:

...the innate three ṇāḍīs in the body, innate trio of exhalation, inhalation and abiding of the breath; and the innate as the three poisonous afflictions of the mind6; nine dharmas. In those innates, there is the inner obstacles, the innate three combined diseases; the outer obstacles the innate three demons.
Now then, the diseases are one, vata; pitta and blood both are counted as one; and kapha are three. The three demons are male class, female class, and nāgā.
Now fifteen dharmas exist from the beginning of the body’s development, and therefore are the fifteen innate dharmas.


The three innate experiences of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality arise on the basis of these fifteen dharmas.

And the result innate is the three doors of liberation i.e. "Because the samadhis of the trio of pleasure, clarity and non-conceptuality occur, the three ṇāḍīs and the three vāyus are brought under control; one is liberated from the illnesses and the three types of spirits, and one actualizes the three doors of liberation."

Often people have a very restrictive concept of what "sahaja" means. Also the channels in your body are sahaja, the fact that you have one face and two arms is "sahaja" -- that is why two armed, one faced forms of Cakrasamvara and so on are called "sahaja" i.e. natural. In sahaja practice, unlike lower tantra and sutra, we do not reject anything.

Also, for example, the third Karmapa's commentary on Sahaja Mahamudra remarks that Sahaja Mahamudra is practiced in conjunction with Naro Chödruk.

Etc.

Finally, people have a funny idea for example that Tilopa hitting Naropa on the head was the end of Naropa's path. They don't realize that that was the beginning and it was only after that that Tilopa gave Naropa empowerments, practices connected with the channels and so on.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:08 pm

In Five-Fold Path, Six Yogas are not practiced. Thoughts?
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:32 pm

adinatha wrote:In Five-Fold Path, Six Yogas are not practiced. Thoughts?


Five-fold mahāmudra is less gradual. Naro chodrug is more gradual.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Okay. Thank you for your continued patience and time. How do you explain blessings? They are just method? You've cited dohas which say the innate cannot be taught. The Kagyu teach that the innate can be discovered through blessings.


The Hevajra Tantra explains it very nicely:

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the innate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru,
time and method, and from one’s merit.


This is quoted in Lord Jigten Sumgon's Co-Emergent Unification Guru Yoga text. I think this is widely disseminated in the Kagyu.

For example, Dombhi Heruka divides the innate into three aspects: cause, method and result.

The cause innate is the nature of the mind.

The method innate is fifteen innate dharmas:

...the innate three ṇāḍīs in the body, innate trio of exhalation, inhalation and abiding of the breath; and the innate as the three poisonous afflictions of the mind6; nine dharmas. In those innates, there is the inner obstacles, the innate three combined diseases; the outer obstacles the innate three demons.
Now then, the diseases are one, vata; pitta and blood both are counted as one; and kapha are three. The three demons are male class, female class, and nāgā.
Now fifteen dharmas exist from the beginning of the body’s development, and therefore are the fifteen innate dharmas.


The three innate experiences of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality arise on the basis of these fifteen dharmas.

And the result innate is the three doors of liberation i.e. "Because the samadhis of the trio of pleasure, clarity and non-conceptuality occur, the three ṇāḍīs and the three vāyus are brought under control; one is liberated from the illnesses and the three types of spirits, and one actualizes the three doors of liberation."


All this can happen on the basis of shamata practice or with the recognition of the nature of mind, nondual.

Often people have a very restrictive concept of what "sahaja" means. Also the channels in your body are sahaja, the fact that you have one face and two arms is "sahaja" -- that is why two armed, one faced forms of Cakrasamvara and so on are called "sahaja" i.e. natural. In sahaja practice, unlike lower tantra and sutra, we do not reject anything.

Also, for example, the third Karmapa's commentary on Sahaja Mahamudra remarks that Sahaja Mahamudra is practiced in conjunction with Naro Chödruk.


Lord Jigten Sumgon teaches otherwise, that Sahaja Mahamudra is beyond Naro Chodruk.

Etc.

Finally, people have a funny idea for example that Tilopa hitting Naropa on the head was the end of Naropa's path. They don't realize that that was the beginning and it was only after that that Tilopa gave Naropa empowerments, practices connected with the channels and so on.

N


The tradition teaches that Naropa prophesied that all of Marpa's descendants would be greater than the previous. Anyway, Gampopa began teaching Mahamudra without channels and winds.

Basically, you didn't explain blessings. There's something more, related to interdependence and association with realized beings, elimination of doubt, etc., along with methods that allows one to realize the innate faster. Then, bliss clarity and nonconcept states are like pointed out directly. That alone calms the channels and winds.

Now that I'm thinking on the go, it appears that blessings are indeed connected with bliss, clarity and nonconcept. These three are a non-trio. The guru points out nonconceptuality as the nature of awareness. With that direct cognition, one naturally enters into blissful clarity. The channels and winds go smooth.

The Kagyus mention often blessing as "energy." Milarepa explained it as "bliss waves." I think this is interdependent connection. Association with a master, if one has faith in the master, just that is a direct introduction to nonconceptuality. The master's state, and our mirror-like awareness should be sufficient for recognition of the nonconceptual state.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:44 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:In Five-Fold Path, Six Yogas are not practiced. Thoughts?


Five-fold mahāmudra is less gradual. Naro chodrug is more gradual.

N


I see. Then, there's the Co-Emergent Mahamudra which is less gradual than Five-Fold Path. Why would it be less gradual if it doesn't make use of channels? Or it does but as a function of the deity and guru yogas, which brings on bliss, clarity and nonthought and on that basis Mahamudra can be recognized?

Then, in Dzogchen, the master points out these aspects of awareness with the verbal descriptions, symbolic representations and the sudden pointing methods? Then, using the methods of postures, etc., one can recognize the five lights. etc?
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:45 pm

adinatha wrote:I see. Then, there's the Co-Emergent Mahamudra which is less gradual than Five-Fold Path.


There is not one monolithic sahajamahamudra. For example, most texts in Kagyu called "sahaja mahamudra" concern the four yogas. Gyalpo Rinpoche says in the mahamudra section of his book on five-fold mahamudra:

Maitripa, the lineage holding disciple of the main disciple of master Nagarjuna, Savaripa,asserts that one should introduce the path of means to the person of gradual capacity, and introduce [mahamudra] directly to the person of immediate capacity.


Why would it be less gradual if it doesn't make use of channels? Or it does but as a function of the deity and guru yogas, which brings on bliss, clarity and nonthought and on that basis Mahamudra can be recognized?


It is because the creation stage of the five-fold mahāmudra is considered profound. Gyalpo Rinpoche considers this to be a really important point in his book:

Since that deity, the clear appearance of instantaneous awareness [rig pa skag gcig ma] includes all of the crucial points of the creation stage into one, the profound creation stage is mahamudra.

This is also the case in Sakya. Sachen says:

As such, if one understands the dharmadhātu,
spiritual practice possessing characteristics is not possible;
if one also meditates the creation stage with that [understanding],
[the creation stage] is spiritual practice without characteristics.


N
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:This is also the case in Sakya. Sachen says:

As such, if one understands the dharmadhātu,
spiritual practice possessing characteristics is not possible;
if one also meditates the creation stage with that [understanding],
[the creation stage] is spiritual practice without characteristics.


N


Okay, this is a very key point, IMHO. It's what Saraha's doha is talking about, when thought becomes luminosity. So then, the question is, How did one understand the dharmadhatu to practice creation stage without characteristics?
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:58 am

Maitripa's Essential Mahamudra Verses

Translated into English by Nicole Riggs.

To innermost bliss, I pay homage!

Were I to explain Mahamudra, I would say—
All phenomena? Your own mind!
If you look outside for meaning, you'll get confused.
Phenomena are like a dream, empty of true nature,

And mind is merely the flux of awareness,
No self nature: just energy flow.
No true nature: just like the sky.
All phenomena are alike, sky-like.

That's Mahamudra, as we call it.
It doesn't have an identity to show;
For that reason, the nature of mind
Is itself the very state of Mahamudra
(Which is not made up, and does not change).
If you realize this basic reality
You recognize all that comes up, all that goes on,
as Mahamudra,
The all-pervading dharma-body.

Rest in the true nature, free of fabrication.
Meditate without searching for dharma-body—
It is devoid of thought.
If your mind searches, your meditation will be confused.

Because it's like space, or like a magical show,
There is neither meditation or non-meditation,
How could you be separate or inseparable?
That's how a yogi sees it!

Then, aware of all good and bad stuff as the basic reality,
You become liberated.
Neurotic emotions are great awareness,
They're to a yogi as trees are to a fire—FUEL!

What are notions of going or staying?
Or, for that matter, "meditating" in solitude?
If you don't get this,
You free yourself only on the surface.

But if you do get it, what can ever fetter you?
Abide in an undistracted state.
Trying to adjust body and mind won't produce meditation.
Trying to apply techniques won't produce meditation either.

See, nothing is ultimately established.
Know what appears to have no intrinsic nature.
Appearances perceived: reality's realm, self-liberated.
Thought that perceives: spacious awareness, self-liberated.
Non-duality, sameness [of perceiver and perceived]: the dharma-body.

Like a wide stream flowing non-stop,
Whatever the phase, it has meaning
And is forever the awakened state—
Great bliss without samsaric reference.

All phenomena are empty of intrinsic nature
And the mind that clings to emptiness dissolves in its own ground.
Freedom from conceptual activity
Is the path of all the Buddhas.

I've put together these lines
That they may last for aeons to come.
By this virtue, may all beings without exception
Abide in the great state of Mahamudra.


Colophon

This was Maitripa's Essential Mahamudra Instruction (in Tibetan: Phyag rgya chen po tshig bsdus pa), received from Maitripa himself and translated by the Tibetan translator Marpa Chökyi Lodrö.

© Nicole Riggs 1999. Reproduction welcome
if not for profit and with full acknowledgement.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:42 am

So Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche finished the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha teaching. It ends with the difference between the path of desire and path of liberation. There he explained that the path of desire is normally of no use to ordinary people, and the path of liberation (where the consort is only visualized as the yab yum deity) is far more effective and has consistent results. The path of desire is typically only useful for people who have 10th bhumi. They have realized the meaning of emptiness of self and phenomena to an extent where the consort practice actually makes them improve very fast. He said for this reason, the path of liberation was given by Milarepa to Gampopa and the path of desire to Rechungpa. This accounts for why the Mahasiddhas have consort practice, and why the monks have path of liberation. So the path of desire is considered a low inferior path, that's mostly useless. And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore. That's the basic summary what he said today.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:34 am

adinatha wrote:So Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche finished the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha teaching. It ends with the difference between the path of desire and path of liberation. There he explained that the path of desire is normally of no use to ordinary people, and the path of liberation (where the consort is only visualized as the yab yum deity) is far more effective and has consistent results. The path of desire is typically only useful for people who have 10th bhumi. They have realized the meaning of emptiness of self and phenomena to an extent where the consort practice actually makes them improve very fast. He said for this reason, the path of liberation was given by Milarepa to Gampopa and the path of desire to Rechungpa. This accounts for why the Mahasiddhas have consort practice, and why the monks have path of liberation. So the path of desire is considered a low inferior path, that's mostly useless. And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore. That's the basic summary what he said today.

Good stuff. It's been an interesting and informative topic. Thanks Adinatha and Namdrol.

All the best,

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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:54 pm

adinatha wrote:So Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche finished the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha teaching. It ends with the difference between the path of desire and path of liberation. There he explained that the path of desire is normally of no use to ordinary people, and the path of liberation (where the consort is only visualized as the yab yum deity) is far more effective and has consistent results. The path of desire is typically only useful for people who have 10th bhumi. They have realized the meaning of emptiness of self and phenomena to an extent where the consort practice actually makes them improve very fast. He said for this reason, the path of liberation was given by Milarepa to Gampopa and the path of desire to Rechungpa. This accounts for why the Mahasiddhas have consort practice, and why the monks have path of liberation. So the path of desire is considered a low inferior path, that's mostly useless. And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore. That's the basic summary what he said today.


That is contradictory. Don't you think the capacity of 10th bhumi "people" is much greater than ordinary people? And hence why they can practice with a consort? On the other hand the capacity of ordinary people is much lower and hence they can't practice with a consort. So it is not that the path of desire is a low inferior path but actually a high superior path but unfortunately most of us are unable to practice it. If it were not so, you're also basically saying Mahasiddhas are inferior to ordinary people.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:04 pm

adinatha wrote:

And the result innate is the three doors of liberation i.e. "Because the samadhis of the trio of pleasure, clarity and non-conceptuality occur, the three ṇāḍīs and the three vāyus are brought under control; one is liberated from the illnesses and the three types of spirits, and one actualizes the three doors of liberation."


All this can happen on the basis of shamata practice or with the recognition of the nature of mind, nondual.


Not in one lifetime. Here, we are in a simple disagreement. If it were true, then there would be no need for empowerment, etc. Sutrayāna would by itself be sufficient.


Lord Jigten Sumgon teaches otherwise, that Sahaja Mahamudra is beyond Naro Chodruk.


I am pretty certain that Naro Chodruk is used a support.

The tradition teaches that Naropa prophesied that all of Marpa's descendants would be greater than the previous.


You missed the point.

Anyway, Gampopa began teaching Mahamudra without channels and winds.


According to both Kongtrul and according to what Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso told me personally when I asked him about so called "sutra mahāmudra", they both say that Gampopa taught a non-tantric mahāmudra in order to pacify people he felt were not ready for Vajrayāna practice. So he taught them shamatha and vipashyāna in terms of mahāmudra view. But I have also ready passages in Gampopa's works where he criticizes mahāmudra as well.


Basically, you didn't explain blessings. There's something more, related to interdependence and association with realized beings, elimination of doubt, etc., along with methods that allows one to realize the innate faster. Then, bliss clarity and nonconcept states are like pointed out directly. That alone calms the channels and winds.


I felt I explained it adequately. There is nothing more than meeting one's guru, time etc., and one's karmic readiness for the teachings. What more could you need?

Everything else has to do with Guru Yoga, which I already mentioned above (according to the Guhyasamaja system). Guru Yoga is the practice for the best student that bypasses the need for the two stages and working with channels and cakras. People think that there is only a devotional aspect to Guru Yoga, but that is not true. Guru Yoga works directly with the anahatabindu in the heart and can directly cause the winds and so on to withdraw into the central channel.

There are two paths to realizing mahāmudra, the path of the two stage, or the path of guruyoga. Otherwise, there is no other path for realizing mahāmudra.

Milarepa explained it as "bliss waves."


This is probably a bad translation. I would have to see the Tibetan passage.

The master's state, and our mirror-like awareness should be sufficient for recognition of the nonconceptual state.


This is what the Nyingmapas and the Kagyus maintain. It is hard to test, since as we know, no one gets through being a Tibetan Buddhist for long without taking a major empowerment.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:08 pm

adinatha wrote:And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.


Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.

However, the lineage of these kinds of practices are still quite active in Sakya and Nyingma; and presumably, Gelug and Jonang.

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa emphasized that these practices were really quite important. In Nyinthig, the preliminary practice of cultivating bliss in the trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality is consort practice, and Longchenpa devotes an entire text to it alone in Lama Yangthig.

In the system of Ghantapada's five stages, first you work with a samayamudra (a visualized consort), then eventually you work with a karmamudra in the third, fourth and fifth stages.

What has happened in Tibet is that the three gsar ma schools have each taken a monolithic approach to the raw material of the writings and teachings of the Indian siddhas and masters. These monolithic approaches ride roughshod over the intricate details and variety found in Indian Buddhist siddha praxis. Also, the dim view that Tibetan kings took of mother tantra, and the practices of "union" and "liberation", etc., really affected the way the Kadampas interpreted the Dharma.

As far as Gampopa was concerned, he is really more into tattva than mahāmudra and so on, following the treatises of Maitripa. His nephew, Gomsthul asked:

"In terms of the view, what is common and what is superior?"

Gampopa replies:

"In common with cittamatra, everything is gathered into the mind. Cittamatrins however assert the mind as ultimate. Since the essence is that mind does not arise, [our view] is superior. Free from proliferation is common with Madhyamaka, [our view] is superior because of wisdom. The great vehicle of mantra does not assert aspects as true in common with the path of liberation; the mother tantra practitioners meditate making bliss into the object. The practitioners of the great perfection meditates through making emptiness into an object. The practitioners of mahāmudra meditate through making equanimity into an object. Those are mental fabrications.

Since reality (the essence that is not fabricated with the mind) is meditated, the essence is superior.

The parts in common can be seen for yourself. If you understand what that practice has in common, the blessings are great."
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:17 pm

Pero wrote:
adinatha wrote:So Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche finished the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha teaching. It ends with the difference between the path of desire and path of liberation. There he explained that the path of desire is normally of no use to ordinary people, and the path of liberation (where the consort is only visualized as the yab yum deity) is far more effective and has consistent results. The path of desire is typically only useful for people who have 10th bhumi. They have realized the meaning of emptiness of self and phenomena to an extent where the consort practice actually makes them improve very fast. He said for this reason, the path of liberation was given by Milarepa to Gampopa and the path of desire to Rechungpa. This accounts for why the Mahasiddhas have consort practice, and why the monks have path of liberation. So the path of desire is considered a low inferior path, that's mostly useless. And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore. That's the basic summary what he said today.


That is contradictory. Don't you think the capacity of 10th bhumi "people" is much greater than ordinary people? And hence why they can practice with a consort? On the other hand the capacity of ordinary people is much lower and hence they can't practice with a consort. So it is not that the path of desire is a low inferior path but actually a high superior path but unfortunately most of us are unable to practice it. If it were not so, you're also basically saying Mahasiddhas are inferior to ordinary people.


Not contradictory. What he explained is that ordinary people have too many ordinary attachments. If the consort practice is not performed where both yogi and yogini have the pure vision of being nondual Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, if they have even one moment of dualistic grasping, they just accumulate negative karma, and blessings of a nondual union are lost. For this reason, it takes a high practitioner who have the ability to rest in nonduality in any condition to accomplish this practice.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:20 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.


Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.


I should add, Drubpon Rinpoche also said Tilopa is the one who expressed to Naropa that karmamudra is a low level practice. Kagyu are not saying Gampopa monkified tantra. Rather, they are saying from the onset, Tilopa downgraded karmamudra and upgraded samayamudra and mahamudra. Also that this has its foundation in Saraha through Maitripa as well.
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Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:25 pm

adinatha wrote:Not contradictory. What he explained is that ordinary people have too many ordinary attachments. If the consort practice is not performed where both yogi and yogini have the pure vision of being nondual Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, if they have even one moment of dualistic grasping, they just accumulate negative karma, and blessings of a nondual union are lost. For this reason, it takes a high practitioner who have the ability to rest in nonduality in any condition to accomplish this practice.

Well following this is that consort practice is for people of high capacity, not the opposite like you said before and what you're saying in your last post too. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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