Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen

[adinatha]

There are interesting passages in Saraha's Treasury of Dohas and some things mentioned by the commentator, Chomden Raldri, pointing to another commentary by Moksaragupta that indicate Dzogchen:

The nature of the innate cannot be told with words,
Yet the instructions of the master can be seen with the eye.

Five lights being hinted?

The mind must be apprehended like the sky,
Just like the sky, so should the mind be held.

If the mind is taken to be like the sky, the wind is quelled;
Being totally aware of sameness, they subside.
When you have the ability spoken of by Saraha,
Impermanence and instability become quickly abandoned.
If wind, fire and the great elements are ceased,
When the ambrosia flows, wind enters the mind.
When the four yogas are settled in one place,
The sky cannot contain such supreme bliss.

The commentator mentions:

[Y]ou must look into the cloudless sky. Indicating one stares into the sky until nature of mind, observer and sky are nondual. The looking is at the actual sky.

Kyela! Look with your senses;
Than this I have realized no more.

The commentator further indicates:

If this is meditated upon,
A body like a rainbow will be attained.

And:

If one is free of knowing this...
...a body which is like a rainbow arises which travels in the sky.

Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

Saraha also refutes the path of means:

On the stalk of a petaled lotus, in the center of the corolla,
A very subtle fiber, fragrant and colored:
Such distinctions come and make the deluded suffer.
Do not turn the fruit for which you long into nothing.

The commentator interprets:

One should give up meditation in which one develops many circuits of channels...

To sum up, Saraha clearly presses the notion of the inexpressible innate. Second, that it must be perceived with the senses. Third, that is done with the physical sky. Fourth, that it causes the elements to subside. Fifth, it is not part of the path of means. Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

[adinatha]

Additionally, the commentary states:

The Prophecy on the Intention of the Tantras states:

The various mundane designations,
Divisive conceptuality, and enlightenment,
Always arise as wind.

If the disciple ultimately guards well what must be heard, the poison spike, or the poison buried in his heart, that is, the root mind, dissolves into dust, into luminosity, for it is pure from the root. Though Moksaragupta explains the heart as the indestructible vital point, this is the luminosity of the mind, and therefore it fades away there. For example, when water is poured into water, the water is all the same. Just so, the root mind and luminosity become one. Tilopa explains:

"The aggregates, senses, and sense realms
All arise out of and fade into
The nature of co-emergent mind.

Here the wind, root mind, the innate aka co-emergent mind, and the indestructible heart bindu are mentioned together. When the poison wind is recognized as luminosity, the wind dissolves into the heart-bindu, leaving only the luminosity. Another way to say this is that the conceptual thought itself is realized to be luminosity and thus it fads away.

Just like the sight of the snake-like black rope
And they are terrified.

But when one realizes the rope is a rope, there is no terror. Similarly, when one realizes the terror is luminosity, there is no terror. The physical description of wind dissolving into the heart-bind and the experiential recognition of conceptual thought being recognized as luminosity is the same thing.

[kalden yungdrung]

Adhi Nath wrote:
To sum up, Saraha clearly presses the notion of the inexpressible innate. Second, that it must be perceived with the senses. Third, that is done with the physical sky. Fourth, that it causes the elements to subside. Fifth, it is not part of the path of means. Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Tashi delek,

2nd: That it must be perceived with the senses an experience, does not belong to Dzogchen.

In Dzogchen one does not make use of the senses, in the sense that the Natural State is empty.
If one does experience with the senses that is based on the dualistic principles of the boss of the mind of senses and that does not count as a Dzogchen experience of pure awareness.

So if one looks outside to inside that is done with the eyes of karma, that is no Dzogchen vision
If one "sees " in the way of Dzogchen one does see more from inside to outside, that is a Dzogchen vision

The experience of the senses do belong to the dualistic world of karma together with its memory.
This is not that experience of awareness which is happening without a dualistic mind, memory etc.
In Bardo when there is no body there is experience of awareness which can be based on object subject or not.
Here are no senses working but that does not happen also not in sleep, whereas there is still awareness possible.

best wishes
KY

[Malcolm]

Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Not necessarily.

[adinatha]

Adhi Nath wrote:
To sum up, Saraha clearly presses the notion of the inexpressible innate. Second, that it must be perceived with the senses. Third, that is done with the physical sky. Fourth, that it causes the elements to subside. Fifth, it is not part of the path of means. Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

[color=#0040FF]Tashi delek,

2nd: That it must be perceived with the senses an experience, does not belong to Dzogchen.

In Dzogchen one does not make use of the senses, in the sense that the Natural State is empty.
If one does experience with the senses that is based on the dualistic principles of the boss of the mind of senses and that does not count as a Dzogchen experience of pure awareness.

The gist of what Saraha is saying is that the senses are empty. Dzogchen lets all the senses remain open. The natural state is present in all senses.

[adinatha]

Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

Are you familiar with Moksaragupta or are you speculating? Because the Doha and commentary are not about path of channels and winds. It's about the innate. And Saraha and commentators all trounce the path of means.

Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Not necessarily.

Not necessarily not either.

[dzoki]

Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

Are you familiar with Moksaragupta or are you speculating?

Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Not necessarily.

Not necessarily not either.

'ja' lus is primarily anuttara tanra term connected especially to mother tantras. "rainbow body" of dzogpa chenpo is in fact called 'od kyi lus Somehow rainbow body got later on mixed into dzogchen terminology, now everybody is using this term indiscriminatedly which causes a great deal of confusion.
Same as maha-ati being used in place of mahasandhi. Maha-ati is not dzogchen in sanskrit, maha-ati is either a combination of atiyoga and mahamudra or one of the classes of mahayoga sadhanas.

[adinatha]

'ja' lus is primarily anuttara tanra term connected especially to mother tantras. "rainbow body" of dzogpa chenpo is in fact called 'od kyi lus Somehow rainbow body got later on mixed into dzogchen terminology, now everybody is using this term indiscriminatedly which causes a great deal of confusion.

Re 'od kyi lus... The body of light is apparently an inner realization. The ja lus is flying in the sky and going through walls etc.

Same as maha-ati being used in place of mahasandhi. Maha-ati is not dzogchen in sanskrit, maha-ati is either a combination of atiyoga and mahamudra or one of the classes of mahayoga sadhanas.

Maha-Ati was a term Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche invented.

[adinatha]

Saraha's meaning re "the innate" is a realization analogous to the body of light and the fourth appearance of thogal. This realization can produce the experience of five lights and dissolution of the elements. The meaning of this Doha is identical to the meaning of the final testaments of the masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu.

[Malcolm]

Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

Are you familiar with Moksaragupta or are you speculating? Because the Doha and commentary are not about path of channels and winds. It's about the innate. And Saraha and commentators all trounce the path of means.

Yes, I am familiar with Moksakaragupta. It is as I said the signs I mentioned are the signs being referred to.

Sahaja is the result, among other things. As the Hevajra Tantra says "The innate is said to be awakening".

Completion stages are the means to realize that.

I don't believe that Saraha really slighted creation and completion stage. If he did, why would he have bothered to pass on Guhyasamaja, Cakrasamvara and so on?

Also Virupa, for example says:

Some are completely tortured with empowerment rites,
some always count their rosary saying hūm phat,
some consume shit, piss, blood, semen and meat,
some meditate the yoga of nadi and vāyu, but all are deluded.

But we know quite well that Virupa attained realization with a karmamudra. So there must be another meaning. It is as Tilopa says

If one relies on a karmamudrā, the wisdom of bliss and emptiness arises,
...
if one has no desire the wisdom of wisdom of bliss and emptiness will not blaze.

He also says:

Practitioners of mantra, of the perfections,
of discipline, and of the sutras and so on
do not see the luminosity of mahāmudra,
with their own texts and theories;
luminosity is not seen, obscured with such wishful thinking.

All of these warnings are in place so that practitioner does not lose the main point in getting attached to various experiences that arise in creation and completion stage. They are not informing people to abandon the practice of the two stages.

Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

N

[dzoki]

'ja' lus is primarily anuttara tanra term connected especially to mother tantras. "rainbow body" of dzogpa chenpo is in fact called 'od kyi lus Somehow rainbow body got later on mixed into dzogchen terminology, now everybody is using this term indiscriminatedly which causes a great deal of confusion.

Re 'od kyi lus... The body of light is apparently an inner realization. The ja lus is flying in the sky and going through walls etc.

Both are inner realizations, but their manifestation is different, 'od kyi lus means that after the death the body disolves into the light, which is the esence of the elements leaving the nails and hair behind, or in case of phowa chenpo this occurs during the lifetime without manifesting death and leaving any remains. 'ja' lus means that the body disolves into the tiniest dharmas after the death, so no visible remains are left behind. The later is for example the case with Rechungpa and other close sons and daughters of Milarepa. Both of these realisations are realisation of budhahood.

[dzoki]

There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

This is of course true, however it is possible that Saraha and other mahasiddhas practiced atiyoga. For example in a personal conversation Lobpon Ogyan Tenzin mentioned to me that there is a sanskrit text on three inner tantras written by Naropa which was discovered in Nepal. I guess the text is probably in possesion of Central Institute of Higher Tibetan Studies, but it would be best to ask proffesor Ogyan Tenzin. He also said that the reason why there was no atiyoga in gsar ma wave is that first of all new translators inaccurately translated some of the sanskrit texts and second of all since most of them came to India for rather brief periods Indian acharyas did not see it fitting to transmit such precious precepts to the students from the land of barbarians.
One of the examples of such incomplete transmissions might be kye’i rdo rje rgyud kyi rgyal po in two chapters. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche once mentioned that he had a series of dreams where he read two aditional chapters of this tantra, which makes it Hevajra tantra in four chapters, chapter number 3 was concerned with anuyoga and chapter number four was concerned with atiyoga. It is possible that in our dimension only first two chapters of this tantra were revealed, but it is also possible that Tibetans were able to procure only these two from their Indian teachers.

[Malcolm]

There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

This is of course true, however it is possible that Saraha and other mahasiddhas practiced atiyoga. For example in a personal conversation Lobpon Ogyan Tenzin mentioned to me that there is a sanskrit text on three inner tantras written by Naropa which was discovered in Nepal.

The terms "Anuyoga" and "atiyoga" are not unique to the Nyingma tradition. I have found them sprinkled about other texts. The way they are used in the Nyingma tradition is unique to that school and are not used in the same way in any gsar ma text I have ever read.

He also said that the reason why there was no atiyoga in gsar ma wave is that first of all new translators inaccurately translated some of the sanskrit texts

Sectarian Bullshit.

and second of all since most of them came to India for rather brief periods Indian acharyas did not see it fitting to transmit such precious precepts to the students from the land of barbarians.

As above.

One of the examples of such incomplete transmissions might be kye’i rdo rje rgyud kyi rgyal po in two chapters.

No. This is a text I am very familiar with in terms of its Indian commentarial tradition. Indian commentators also had to explain why there were only two sections.

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche once mentioned that he had a series of dreams where he read two aditional chapters of this tantra, which makes it Hevajra tantra in four chapters, chapter number 3 was concerned with anuyoga and chapter number four was concerned with atiyoga.

Yes. I know.

It is possible that in our dimension only first two chapters of this tantra were revealed, but it is also possible that Tibetans were able to procure only these two from their Indian teachers.

Originally, the longer one supposedly was available, we have some citations of it sprinkled in various commentaries, notably, Vajragarbha's commentary. But in general, all we have in India is the two sections.

[dzoki]

There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

This is of course true, however it is possible that Saraha and other mahasiddhas practiced atiyoga. For example in a personal conversation Lobpon Ogyan Tenzin mentioned to me that there is a sanskrit text on three inner tantras written by Naropa which was discovered in Nepal.

The terms "Anuyoga" and "atiyoga" are not unique to the Nyingma tradition. I have found them sprinkled about other texts. The way they are used in the Nyingma tradition is unique to that school and are not used in the same way in any gsar ma text I have ever read.

Well this ain't any gsar ma text either, it is a text of which no Tibetan translation exists.

He also said that the reason why there was no atiyoga in gsar ma wave is that first of all new translators inaccurately translated some of the sanskrit texts

Sectarian Bullshit.

Bullshit or not, he is not the only critic of new translations, the ethymological method of translating made many of gsar ma translations quite awkward and complicated, while the rnying ma translations of the same texts seem according to some critics (Gyurme Dorje for one)to have more flow to them. Also Rongzom wasn't entirely happy with the job some of the gsar ma translators had done. What about the term rdzogs chen missing from guhyasamaja tantra in its gsar ma version?

and second of all since most of them came to India for rather brief periods Indian acharyas did not see it fitting to transmit such precious precepts to the students from the land of barbarians.

[quote="Namdrol"]
As above.
[quote]

I would call it just an opinion instead of bullshit. In earlier periods when Indian pandits where invited to the Tibetan Empire, I guess they had more time and possibly also better conditions to teach the inner tantras. Also the texts of atiyoga were probably not availeable in India during the later period this also could be a reason why Indian mahasiddhas did not transmit atiyoga to the translators from Tibet during the later period of translating. It is of course possible that they had no atiyoga in the first place. Anyways all these are for now just speculations, but the possibility that also mahasiddhas like Naropa practiced atiyoga is quite intriguing.
Plus Lobpon Ogyan is in my experience not sectarian at all and he would have no reason to spread sectarian non-sense. He is quite learned person who speaks fluent sanskrit and knows several ancient indian languages, so he might also have some reason behind his words, don't you think?

Mind is quick to react to the thoughts and mouths are quick to issue the words, the hands are quick to write harsh statements.

[adinatha]

This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

Are you familiar with Moksaragupta or are you speculating? Because the Doha and commentary are not about path of channels and winds. It's about the innate. And Saraha and commentators all trounce the path of means.

Yes, I am familiar with Moksakaragupta. It is as I said the signs I mentioned are the signs being referred to.

Sahaja is the result, among other things. As the Hevajra Tantra says "The innate is said to be awakening".

Completion stages are the means to realize that.

Chakrasamvara Tantra has a chapter explaining creation and completion stages nondual as co-emergent Chakrasamvara.

I don't believe that Saraha really slighted creation and completion stage. If he did, why would he have bothered to pass on Guhyasamaja, Cakrasamvara and so on?

Different strokes for different folks. His doha also explains that conceptual thought, including yogic practices, are nondual with luminosity. IOW, creation and completion is not wrong. The point is to realize the innate. Which one can realize prior to buddhahood.

Also Virupa, for example says:

Some are completely tortured with empowerment rites,
some always count their rosary saying hūm phat,
some consume shit, piss, blood, semen and meat,
some meditate the yoga of nadi and vāyu, but all are deluded.

But we know quite well that Virupa attained realization with a karmamudra. So there must be another meaning. It is as Tilopa says

There is realization with karmamudra, even Saraha says so. But it is couched in terms of a practice of those of lower capacity.

If one relies on a karmamudrā, the wisdom of bliss and emptiness arises,
...
if one has no desire the wisdom of wisdom of bliss and emptiness will not blaze.

Should read: "For those of inferior intellect..."

He also says:

Practitioners of mantra, of the perfections,
of discipline, and of the sutras and so on
do not see the luminosity of mahāmudra,
with their own texts and theories;
luminosity is not seen, obscured with such wishful thinking.

All of these warnings are in place so that practitioner does not lose the main point in getting attached to various experiences that arise in creation and completion stage. They are not informing people to abandon the practice of the two stages.

They are not informing anyone to abandon anything. They are talking on different levels. In Tilopa's Mahamudra Upadesha, pure mahamudra is for those of superior capacity. Creation and completion for those of medium capacity. And karmamudra for those of lowest capacity. For those of superior capacity, Mahamudra is realized forthwith and there is no recourse to other systems.

Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

N

It is Saraha not Moksaragupta who says "the Guru's instructions can be seen with the eye." His doha is not talking about creation and completion stages. The commentator explains Saraha was giving this Doha to Padmavajra, as his guru. Saraha is talking about non-meditation.

Saraha's dohas are eerily similar to the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud Oral Pith Instructions of the lineage masters, where luminosity and appearances are not taught to be separate practices but concurrent recognitions of the natural state. They simply call their practice "Clear Light." My master, Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche, explains things in a similar manner.

I know five lights arise without secondary causes of light, postures or gazes, due to uncommon guru yoga practices like in Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud or Co-Emergent Mahamudra. When I practice Thogal it takes a fair amount of time for the five lights to take shape as a clearly defined circular bindu. But when I practice the uncommon guru yoga in Co-Emergent Mahamudra, it appears very clearly. I must contend that the recognition of innate luminosity and wisdom appearances is not foreign to Saraha; our Co-Emergent Mahamudra lineage comes from Saraha. It may not be "dzogchen" but the lineage of the innate survives in the Drikung Kagyu. Though it is not a widespread teaching.

When one realizes luminosity in all appearances, wind dissolves into the heart bindu. This causes the five lights to appear within the context of the path of seeing, rather than prior to it. But unlike Nyingthig, the four appearances would not arise. One would go to the third and/or fourth appearance. In Co-Emergent Mahamudra, there are instructions about visions of buddhas, etc., so the third appearance may or may not be apropos, but the innate perfectly fits the definition of the fourth appearance, Exhaustion of Phenomena, because the "innate" is the dissolving of appearances. When one reads the Oral Instructions in the Zhang Zhung, there is very little about "visions." The thrust is to take all appearances as the "Natural State." Everything is wrapped up in this one realization of Clear Light.

Then, yoga of two stages is not essential. Tregcho-Thogal dichotomy is not essential. The division between Great Completion and Mahamudra is not real. Ja lus and 'ok kyi lus are just names. There is only one "innate" "Natural State."

[kalden yungdrung]

Adhi Nath wrote:
The gist of what Saraha is saying is that the senses are empty. Dzogchen lets all the senses remain open. The natural state is present in all senses.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Dzogchen uses the senses in an unobstructed way.
All is based on arising, remaining and dissolving again into the " place " where it came out the Gzhi / Mother / Nature.
We all (all there is) are artising staying and dissolving into Nature.

That is here meant in Dzogchen with let it be like it is but don' t follow it........
So the senses are in this light seen as not empty per se but more as arising etc. out of this emptiness.

Well that means no Dzogchen in Saraha' s songs of Mahamudra etc.

Best wishes
KY

[adinatha]

Adhi Nath wrote:
The gist of what Saraha is saying is that the senses are empty. Dzogchen lets all the senses remain open. The natural state is present in all senses.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Dzogchen uses the senses in an unobstructed way.
All is based on arising, remaining and dissolving again into the " place " where it came out the Gzhi / Mother / Nature.
We all (all there is) are artising staying and dissolving into Nature.

That is here meant in Dzogchen with let it be like it is but don' t follow it........
So the senses are in this light seen as not empty per se but more as arising etc. out of this emptiness.

Best wishes
KY

Yeah, this is the same in Yungdrung & Nyingmapa Dzogchen and pure Mahamudra. I'm seeing these naming divisions are not useful anymore. There is a Clear Light lineage that is common to all of these. The lineage trees and specific preliminary methods differ. But the essential teaching is identical.

[kalden yungdrung]

Adhi Nath wrote:
The gist of what Saraha is saying is that the senses are empty. Dzogchen lets all the senses remain open. The natural state is present in all senses.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Dzogchen uses the senses in an unobstructed way.
All is based on arising, remaining and dissolving again into the " place " where it came out the Gzhi / Mother / Nature.
We all (all there is) are artising staying and dissolving into Nature.

That is here meant in Dzogchen with let it be like it is but don' t follow it........
So the senses are in this light seen as not empty per se but more as arising etc. out of this emptiness.

Best wishes
KY

Yeah, this is the same in Yungdrung & Nyingmapa Dzogchen and pure Mahamudra. I'm seeing these naming divisions are not useful anymore. There is a Clear Light lineage that is common to all of these. The lineage trees and specific preliminary methods differ. But the essential teaching is identical.

Tashi delek,

The mainpoint is here according your statement that this is Dzogchen your Saraha second point etc ., this is not Dzogchen seen in my opinion.

One cannot add or take out of Dzogchen nothing because Dzogchen is like it is 100% pure.

As a Dzogchenpa i have great difficulties with all these statements about Dzogchen is Mahamudra and more of those suggestions, because i came out of the Mahamudra tradition which i did exchange for Dzogchen. In Dzogchen i got the results and NOT in Mahamudra and not in Tantra.
But that does not mean that Tantra and Mahamudra would not be of use for others.


But i understand that because of Dzogchen is very popular everybody likes to equal their teachings with Dzogchen.
25 years ago during my Mahamudra career i never heard that Dzogchen is Mahamudra. What i knew in those days was that one could practice Mahamudra without a base of Tantra.

Maybe are there Dzogchenpas who can share this experience?


Best wishes
KY

[adinatha]

Yeah, this is the same in Yungdrung & Nyingmapa Dzogchen and pure Mahamudra. I'm seeing these naming divisions are not useful anymore. There is a Clear Light lineage that is common to all of these. The lineage trees and specific preliminary methods differ. But the essential teaching is identical.

[color=#0040FF]Tashi delek,

The mainpoint is here according your statement that this is Dzogchen your Saraha second point etc ., this is not Dzogchen seen in my opinion.

One cannot add or take out of Dzogchen nothing because Dzogchen is like it is 100% pure.

I'm not sure we are communicating well here. I'm not putting something into Dzogchen.

As a Dzogchenpa i have great difficulties with all these statements about Dzogchen is Mahamudra and more of those suggestions, because i came out of the Mahamudra tradition which i did exchange for Dzogchen. In Dzogchen i got the results and NOT in Mahamudra and not in Tantra.
But that does not mean that Tantra and Mahamudra would not be of use for others.

Sometimes difficulties are a good thing. Think outside the box. I'm not talking about tantra mahamudra. I'm talking about the innate. What I'm saying is whether you are Oral Instructions of the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu, Nyingmapa Nyingthig, or Kagyu's pure Mahamudra, you are talking about the exact same instructions. There is literally no difference.

But i understand that because of Dzogchen is very popular everybody likes to equal their teachings with Dzogchen.

This is not right. It's not about me-too-ism. I'm looking at these instructions objectively. They share very clear commonalities, when we are talking about the real pith instructions. That indicates to me two things: 1) they came out this way because they are dealing with the same reality; or 2) they share a common root.

25 years ago during my Mahamudra career i never heard that Dzogchen is Mahamudra. What i knew in those days was that one could practice Mahamudra without a base of Tantra.

All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen? I'm telling you there's no difference. Only imaginary ones based on jargon related to methods. But I'm sure you haven't heard before what I've been saying here now, because I'm looking at it for myself and I'm letting you know what I see. I'm not one to play by the rules and parrot my teachers.

[Malcolm]

Perhaps yours doesn't. Ours does. And my teacher got another outline of the pith instructions from His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche and theirs has the same breakdown.

The inferior intellect thing is in a previous section.

Not so. The part about the winds is for medium capacity, and karmamudra for inferior capacity.

Then according to you all Indian mahasiddhas are inferior capacity since they all used karmamudra for realization. Tibetan siddhas are somehow superior since the Kadampas discarded it. Even Milarepa and Marpa are inferior, according you, since they used karmamudra for realization.

That is not the same thing. Besides, the name Thogal and separating it out from Tregcho is sort of a new fangled invention.

Right, you heard that from me. Still, there is no thogal in the dohas.

Why not? Padmavajra was circa 700-800 CE and so was Saraha I.

Padmavajra is mid 9th century -- 150 years after Saraha I. Saraha I did not have a human guru.

That might be a nice point for discussion, and/or might impact what someone is practicing at lineage X, but I don't agree there are different 'od gsal types.

That's your bad, then.

We have already discussed this. As I pointed out to you, Gyalwa Yangonpa points out that Mahamudra is superior to 'od gsal because in the state of 'od gsal as described in sarma tantras and the six yogas of Naropa, there are no appearances.

'od gsal is being used in different ways as relates to methods. I'm talking beyond two stages here.

Too late to change your tune.

This supports what I'm saying.

Not really.

Dzogchen has been inventive. Then, there's this stuff Saraha says in his Doha.

You are seeing mirages.

I don't know.

All four schools have the Sahaja Mahamudra lineage. That is why a discussion of it is included in the Vima Nyinthig.

N