Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:37 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Who did start with this Tulku tradition?


Accoding to Berzin anyone with some degree of mastery over the generation stage and extremely well-developed compassion can start a tulku lineage. Whether they will actually be recognized or not in another lifetime is another matter. But they will still be of benefit to beings in the succeeding lifetimes.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:52 pm

dzoki wrote:One way to stop this would be if people in the West stopped jumping on this bandwagon, if they ignored all new tulkus instead of welcoming them with pomp, maybe this would make the higher-ups in the East realize something. But people in the West in general love pomp and personality cults. So I guess we are screwed here.


I don't think that it is true overall that Westerners "love pomp and personality cults". Westerners are coming to terms with a spiritual view utterly foreign to what they have been taught and have to form an accomodation with rationalism and karma and rebirth. Secondly Westerners really do not like pomp (except maybe the English :jumping: ).

There is a current of spiritual and personal inferiority running through Western thought and emotions. Western tulku's directly contradict the assumptions that some people have been taught regarding themselves and this can take a while for people to work through. So some people can fixate on a person who is supposed to be a tulku.

Western Dharma practitioners are maturing as a group and will be able to more rationally interact with the tulku tradition in the near future. Why will the tulku tradition be useful? Because authentic tulku's are the distillation of numerous lifetimes of successful practice and these qualities can be invaluable. Other people can develop these qualities as well but as Lama Yeshe said, tulkus are special and can be very helpful.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:57 pm

Sönam wrote:The best way to get rid of that tulku business is to considere that we are all tulkus ...


Except that most aren't. We are all rebirths of some sentient being. But in many cases these were hell beings and animals.

However we can all become tulkus and on the road to Buddhahood practically everyone will become a tulku in some way.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:36 pm

Adamantine wrote:But I also understood that in general a highly realized Lama may also lose clarity...


Reincarnations (yang srid) are one thing, Tulkus (sprul sku), nirmanakāyas are another.

I do not have as high expectations for reincarnations (basically none) as I do for tulkus.

Above the eighth bhumi, a reincarnation cannot lose clarity since they have no more afflictive obscuration to lose. On the impure bhumis one still has afflictive obscurations.

The idea that someone achieves the upper bhumis through Vajrayāna methods, and then "loses" clarity, however, is an impossibility.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:47 pm

I agree with the basic contention...the system seems at present in many regards corrupted. There do exist however real spirituall advanced Tulku's as well.
The system speaks to both. Those with most publicity may not be representative of the complete body of work.

As a aside...how many peoples of any sort of accomplishment to include those of the highest formal order have complete total recall in this preesent day. I'd say maybe one or two.
Tulkus are not exempt from the flavor of the day than any others of us.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby gnegirl » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:19 pm

Even if the system goes away, i do hope they continue to take rebirth for the sake of all beings in favorable circumstances to that end.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby dzoki » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:22 pm

kirtu wrote:I don't think that it is true overall that Westerners "love pomp and personality cults". Westerners are coming to terms with a spiritual view utterly foreign to what they have been taught and have to form an accomodation with rationalism and karma and rebirth. Secondly Westerners really do not like pomp (except maybe the English :jumping: ).


My experience has been othervise, for sure by far not all people are like this, but sometimes there is also a "group mentality" few individuals prepare everything to welcome a young "tulku" comming first time to he west and the rest of the group plays along. In Germany you have a lot of fakers (or should I say f.ckers?) comming and teaching as tulkus, in France people are ready to bow their heads and backs before any 9 year old Tibetan being posed as a tulku. Some ordinary guy dressed in Dharma robes comes in and you see all people standing with their hands folded. Also many people are ready to accept vajrayana empowerment, transmission and instruction from whomever without doing a serious research on who the Lama is, whether he/she is genuine or not, etc.

kirtu wrote:There is a current of spiritual and personal inferiority running through Western thought and emotions. Western tulku's directly contradict the assumptions that some people have been taught regarding themselves and this can take a while for people to work through. So some people can fixate on a person who is supposed to be a tulku.


True, my feeling is that Tibetans are often abusing this.

kirtu wrote:Western Dharma practitioners are maturing as a group and will be able to more rationally interact with the tulku tradition in the near future.


I hope at the end this will happen, but I have storng doubts because in countries where Dharma has been for like 30 or more years you can still see atitudes that I described above.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:27 pm

dzoki wrote:
kirtu wrote:I don't think that it is true overall that Westerners "love pomp and personality cults". Westerners are coming to terms with a spiritual view utterly foreign to what they have been taught and have to form an accomodation with rationalism and karma and rebirth. Secondly Westerners really do not like pomp (except maybe the English :jumping: ).


...Also many people are ready to accept vajrayana empowerment, transmission and instruction from whomever without doing a serious research on who the Lama is, whether he/she is genuine or not, etc.



I agree -- in 1998 I watched a crazy person sit on Penor Rinpoche's throne in Green, NY, claim that Penor Rinpoche had told him in a dream the night before to announce that he was a tulku, and observed 200 westerners give this crazy guy prostrations while I sat in astonishment, apart from preventing the western student sitting around me from prostrating.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:31 pm

The tulku system is extremely limiting.
It limits the way we perceive non-titled teachers and it limits the capacity of qualified practitioners to transmit what they have experienced.
The tulku system is a big obstacle to so-called "Western" practitioners learning how to stand on their own two feet and confidently transmit the teachings to the next generation.
I don't have any use for the tulku system and have every intention of putting my teachers teachings in to practice so I can play an active roll in the transmission for the future generations of my family.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:34 pm

Nangwa wrote:The tulku system is extremely limiting.
It limits the way we perceive non-titled teachers and it limits the capacity of qualified practitioners to transmit what they have experienced.
The tulku system is a big obstacle to so-called "Western" practitioners learning how to stand on their own two feet and confidently transmit the teachings to the next generation.
I don't have any use for the tulku system and have every intention of putting my teachers teachings in to practice so I can play an active roll in the transmission for the future generations of my family.


The primary reason the tulku system continues is that common Tibetans have faith in it. Monasteries that have no tulku also have no money since no one will make donations to them.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:The tulku system is extremely limiting.
It limits the way we perceive non-titled teachers and it limits the capacity of qualified practitioners to transmit what they have experienced.
The tulku system is a big obstacle to so-called "Western" practitioners learning how to stand on their own two feet and confidently transmit the teachings to the next generation.
I don't have any use for the tulku system and have every intention of putting my teachers teachings in to practice so I can play an active roll in the transmission for the future generations of my family.


The primary reason the tulku system continues is that common Tibetans have faith in it. Monasteries that have no tulku also have no money since no one will make donations to them.

N

Absolutely.
Its a money maker.
What I find disturbing is that someone with with very little experience, but the label "tulku" will almost always be given authority over experienced practitioners with no title. Which is bullshit.
If a practitioner has the experience and has put in the work they are crucial to the transmission and should be empowered to manifest that role if they feel comfortable doing so.
Tibetan money-politics should have no place in it.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:48 pm

I continue to hold it had its pincipal function as response to a singular monastic perspective to sangha.

Monasticism great as it is, may on occasion become a unbalanced representation of buddhist thought.
I'd say the potential for such to present still exists, this unbalance.

I for one find while accomodation for the devote is to a extent accomplished, but it is the most monatarily devoted that have private session and interaction with leaders in the tradition, quite often. And this to my opinion presents in those leaders who hold the highest most pure of view.
Their enterouage and circumstance of the spiritual in the west and elsewhere necessitate this.

And in its furthest extent in another direction we have monastic, the only that may really advance spiritually and only the monastic that is the equilivizer in the issue. The therevadan model in many countries. So who sits next to the lama/teacher/monk then becomes the most important thing. AS a ever inspired circle going in one direction. While it is true that a tulku may be a money issue, sitting next to a lama may be a money issue as well, at dinner teaching or for most intents and purposes whenever.

So what then the alternative to tulku.
I agree on the point this prevents westerners from accepting the mantel of responsibility for leadership.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:58 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:

So what then the alternative to tulku.
I agree on the point this prevents westerners from accepting the mantel of responsibility for leadership.


I think the alternative is pretty simple. At least in theory.
What we have to do is recognize the qualities present in our vajra brothers and sisters.
Rather than waiting on titled Tibetans to tell us what to do.
We will be able to shed a lot of cultural baggage and take responsibility at the same time.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:15 pm

well not to summarily dismiss that.....
but on another thread I am at this very moment discussing with someone who finds creator gods in buddhism..

that is a extreem example but then it seems is possible the corruption of the teachings.
It seems tulkus provided at least that...some continuance of viable lineage as basis. Though we may question that basis as valid or not.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:18 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:well not to summarily dismiss that.....
but on another thread I am at this very moment discussing with someone who finds creator gods in buddhism..

that is a extreem example but then it seems is possible the corruption of the teachings.
It seems tulkus provided at least that...some continuance of viable lineage as basis. Though we may question that basis as valid or not.

Sure.
Thats primarily why I said "in theory".
The "tulku for authenticity" thing serves a purpose. I just tend to feel that the purpose has run its course and its time for us to take the training wheels off.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:28 pm

It may have

I would suggest we need some better accomodation for the layperson than what is present in the monastic side of things now, if this form of buddhism is ever to become perceived as less eliticist and more main stream.

It does not really matter I'd guess if any other find these things but the perception now may very well be that. I cannot simply explain to anyone I may be with that there is a special dinner for the lama or special ceremony being held and all those that may sit at the table or be closest to the lama are major contributors.

Main stream american religious are averse to that, as in their history of organized theism the catholic had that abuse for about a thousand years and the catholic persists but the memory does as well.
So if this buddhism is to thrive here...that, that type of thing must be completely eradicated.
Otherwise it remains a provincial issue.
Warts are in all religions and I am not attempting to throw things at this. But they are there and not just in Tulku.

So must be balanced accoomodation for persistance of teaching without overt financial influence in things.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:39 pm

I'm talking about a much more private relationship.
Not really a broad public recognition. I think something more along the lines of experienced practitioners transmitting teachings to their children or when one or two people approach a vajra sibling and ask them for teachings.
There is no money involved and no public perception of hierarchy. Its just practitioners openly and actively participating in the transmission with one another.
This would eliminate the cultural baggage and put us in a position of responsibility.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:50 pm

Well I suppose you hold westerners in much higher regards as to the consistancy of the teachings than I do.

I have had one director of a place themselves ardently support for the existance of a soul and then point to a american author as substantiation of such view.

So I err on the side of caution seeing perhaps a greater chance for corruption of the dharma, even at a personal level .
I don't have a answer but one is required I think.
I tend towards thinking this thing can be reformed or that the monastic can be changed to more reflect a open relationship.

Me if I was god of this religion :smile: ...I would set things up so only unknown donations are accepted for the monasticism.
Known would be strictly rejected always every time....so it would have no influence at all.
What purpose knowing if not to be known.

Less donations now more later as I see it....if god of this religion be I :smile:
that would be the rule.

So who sits at the table....would not be the benefactors perhaps but those closest to the lama at the time of the sitting.
Then would this thing have a real chance for general acceptance though I know that is not the focus of this thread.

I personally don't believe in spreading the word..but found out how things are I have personally witnessed many leave it all behind, and find few once found continue to explore it. So ripe are the memories of theistic abuse in this culture.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:52 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Well I suppose you hold westerners in much higher regards as to the consistancy of the teachings than I do.

Its not about holding any group in high regard. Its about recognizing the capacity of certain individuals.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Paul » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:52 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:well not to summarily dismiss that.....
but on another thread I am at this very moment discussing with someone who finds creator gods in buddhism..

that is a extreem example but then it seems is possible the corruption of the teachings.
It seems tulkus provided at least that...some continuance of viable lineage as basis. Though we may question that basis as valid or not.


This is why I find myself very conservative with respect to Buddhism. The present form might contain problems - some pretty significant - but at least they provide a stable structure. For Buddhism's spread to the West, to quote Dune, "The beginning is a very delicate time".
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

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