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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:26 am 
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Trying to find a Buddha or enlightenment is like trying to grab space. Space has a name but no form. It's not something you can pick up or put down. And you certainly can't grab it. Beyond this mind you'll never see a Buddha. The Buddha is a product of your mind. Why look for a Buddha beyond this mind?

-Bodhidharma


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:35 am 
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KwanSeum wrote:
Trying to find a Buddha or enlightenment is like trying to grab space. Space has a name but no form. It's not something you can pick up or put down. And you certainly can't grab it. Beyond this mind you'll never see a Buddha. The Buddha is a product of your mind. Why look for a Buddha beyond this mind?

-Bodhidharma


So start cultivating this mind.

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:15 am 
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So, Buddha is the product of mind. The mind is the product of what?

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Astus wrote:
So, Buddha is the product of mind. The mind is the product of what?


The mind is empty. :meditate:

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:54 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
The mind is empty. :meditate:


Then how can it produce anything?

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
The mind is empty. :meditate:


Then how can it produce anything?


Because it is empty, it can and not at the same time.

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:33 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
Because it is empty, it can and not at the same time.


If it can produce something from nothing, that is a violation of causality. If it can't produce anything it is not true that the Buddha is made by mind. If both are true then both faults apply.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:05 am 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
Because it is empty, it can and not at the same time.


If it can produce something from nothing, that is a violation of causality. If it can't produce anything it is not true that the Buddha is made by mind. If both are true then both faults apply.


How can there be truth and false when it is empty?
How can there be caused or not caused if it is empty?

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NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:43 am 
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Quote:
The mind is empty.

Then how can it produce anything?


Emptiness and cause and effect are not contradictory. It is only because phenomena are empty that cause and effect are possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:10 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
How can there be truth and false when it is empty?
How can there be caused or not caused if it is empty?


So with calling it empty you can avoid actually verbalising it. That's sneaky. :tongue:

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:13 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
Emptiness and cause and effect are not contradictory. It is only because phenomena are empty that cause and effect are possible.


Then is mind within the realm of causality or not? And buddhas? Emptiness is equated with dependent origination by Nagarjuna. Could we say then that mind is a result of causes and conditions just as any common thing? If so, buddhas are nothing but cheap tales for kids.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:13 am 
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Astus wrote:
Could we say then that mind is a result of causes and conditions just as any common thing? If so, buddhas are nothing but cheap tales for kids.


Really? Bodhisattvas are cheap tales for kids? Paul Rusesabagina, Irena Sendler, Dr. Martin Luther King, Cheif Joseph, Thich Nhat Hahn - these are cheap tales for kids?

Pure mind, perfect mind, holding the precepts purely - these are cheap tales for kids?

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:19 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
Astus wrote:
Could we say then that mind is a result of causes and conditions just as any common thing? If so, buddhas are nothing but cheap tales for kids.


Really? Bodhisattvas are cheap tales for kids? Paul Rusesabagina, Irena Sendler, Dr. Martin Luther King, Cheif Joseph, Thich Nhat Hahn - these are cheap tales for kids?

Pure mind, perfect mind, holding the precepts purely - these are cheap tales for kids?

Kirt


Check again the reasoning. Buddha-mind being only a conditional phenomenon invalidates buddhahood.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Astus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Astus wrote:
Could we say then that mind is a result of causes and conditions just as any common thing? If so, buddhas are nothing but cheap tales for kids.


Really? Bodhisattvas are cheap tales for kids? Paul Rusesabagina, Irena Sendler, Dr. Martin Luther King, Cheif Joseph, Thich Nhat Hahn - these are cheap tales for kids?

Pure mind, perfect mind, holding the precepts purely - these are cheap tales for kids?

Kirt


Check again the reasoning. Buddha-mind being only a conditional phenomenon invalidates buddhahood.


Check again the reasoning - we have visible manifestations of bodhisattvas even if they aren't Buddhist and their actions come from their minds and their intentions.

Thought is a conditioned phenomena, Buddha activity (conditioned) comes from Buddha-mind which can be seen in Huayen and Cittamatrin thought as possessing reality (or as being real).

Bodhisattva activity and Buddhahood are real because they ease or eliminate the real experience of ultimately illusory suffering of apparently real sentient beings who also don't truly exist and just abide in the mode of sentient beings. But such verbage does not cool their thirst.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:11 am 
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kirtu wrote:
Check again the reasoning - we have visible manifestations of bodhisattvas even if they aren't Buddhist and their actions come from their minds and their intentions.

Thought is a conditioned phenomena, Buddha activity (conditioned) comes from Buddha-mind which can be seen in Huayen and Cittamatrin thought as possessing reality (or as being real).

Bodhisattva activity and Buddhahood are real because they ease or eliminate the real experience of ultimately illusory suffering of apparently real sentient beings who also don't truly exist and just abide in the mode of sentient beings. But such verbage does not cool their thirst.


Manifestations are the work of the deluded minds of sentient beings grasping at forms and sounds. What activity is there then? So it turns out that whether it is conditioned or unconditioned, buddhas and bodhisattvas are illusions. If the real buddha is the mind what is there to conceive as buddha or mind? Nothing really. Free from ideas all words and phrases can be used at one's will. That is buddha activity. Conditioned and unconditioned are labels to assist the readers. This is not negating the conditioned but saying that if buddha-mind is understood as something conditioned it will be just another concept. And if we understand it is unconditioned it reveals that all forms of ideas are still within the realm of conditioned. Then it is not logical to say that any activity of a buddha is conditioned.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:36 pm 
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"It is because you are running about seeking everywhere and cannot put your heart at rest that the patriarchs say 'My, the fellow with his head on his shoulders is looking for his head!' When on hearing this you turn your own light in upon yourself, and do not seek for anything special, you will know that in your body and heart you do not differ from the patriarchs and Buddhas."

-Linji/Rinzai

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sarvopalambhopaśamah prapañcopaśamah śivah
na kimcitkasyacitkaścid dharmo buddhena deśitah

MMK 25.24

Daily Meditation Practice: http://lotusbloomingfrommud.wordpress.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:43 am 
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Madhyama Pratipada wrote:
"It is because you are running about seeking everywhere and cannot put your heart at rest that the patriarchs say 'My, the fellow with his head on his shoulders is looking for his head!' When on hearing this you turn your own light in upon yourself, and do not seek for anything special, you will know that in your body and heart you do not differ from the patriarchs and Buddhas."

-Linji/Rinzai

--------------------------------------
Excellant. I happen to like Linji/Rinzai as he seems to be speaking directly to me and my particular (and maybe perculiar) nature.
But I know many who call themself a "Buddhist" might think I'm "weird". That doesn't bother me all that much, anyhow.
:smile:

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Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
How can there be truth and false when it is empty?
How can there be caused or not caused if it is empty?


So with calling it empty you can avoid actually verbalising it. That's sneaky. :tongue:


You are trying to verbalize the mind?

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:10 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
You are trying to verbalize the mind?


That's what is called "teaching" and "studying" in Buddhism.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
You are trying to verbalize the mind?


That's what is called "teaching" and "studying" in Buddhism.


If you are looking for any sort of benefit, what you are doing most of the time, as far as i can see, is called "out smarting yourself". And if its just yourself, thats ok, its your choice.


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