Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

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Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:24 pm

Al-Jazeera has this article worth reading.

Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Scientific experts believe Japan's nuclear disaster to be far worse than governments are revealing to the public.


http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/fe ... 02638.html

It might sound like a conspiracy theory, but given that the officials already lied about the amount of radiation released (it was double what they claimed it was) among other blurred facts, it isn't really so outrageous. Al-Jazeera also has quality journalism.

A number of people are taking radiation measurements around Tokyo and so far things are fine. Still, up north things are getting worse, not better. Fukushima's reactors are still not under control. They're still belching out radiation into the air, water and ground.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:11 pm

Huseng wrote:Al-Jazeera has this article worth reading.

Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Scientific experts believe Japan's nuclear disaster to be far worse than governments are revealing to the public.


http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/fe ... 02638.html

It might sound like a conspiracy theory, but given that the officials already lied about the amount of radiation released (it was double what they claimed it was) among other blurred facts, it isn't really so outrageous. Al-Jazeera also has quality journalism.

A number of people are taking radiation measurements around Tokyo and so far things are fine. Still, up north things are getting worse, not better. Fukushima's reactors are still not under control. They're still belching out radiation into the air, water and ground.



Grim. There is this clip that talks about the nightmarish scenarios of worldwide poisoning due to Fukushima. Not sure what to make of it. Is it sensationalism, or truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6ZCxzW8K4
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:34 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Grim. There is this clip that talks about the nightmarish scenarios of worldwide poisoning due to Fukushima. Not sure what to make of it. Is it sensationalism, or truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6ZCxzW8K4


I think she's going overboard.

That being said, there was apparently a spike in infant mortality rates on the west coast of North America following the start of the Fukushima fiasco. The winds carry it across the pacific to the west coast of North America.

There already is radioactive contamination across the planet due to this. They already dumped many tons of radioactive water into the pacific ocean. They say, "Ah, well, it'll be dispersed, so don't worry about it."

Yeah, right.

What's really sad though is Japan on the whole has stopped caring. People have gone back to the routine and are tired of hearing about Fukushima.

It is a lot like the USA and the gulf oil spill.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:57 pm

Huseng wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Grim. There is this clip that talks about the nightmarish scenarios of worldwide poisoning due to Fukushima. Not sure what to make of it. Is it sensationalism, or truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6ZCxzW8K4


I think she's going overboard.

That being said, there was apparently a spike in infant mortality rates on the west coast of North America following the start of the Fukushima fiasco. The winds carry it across the pacific to the west coast of North America.

There already is radioactive contamination across the planet due to this. They already dumped many tons of radioactive water into the pacific ocean. They say, "Ah, well, it'll be dispersed, so don't worry about it."

Yeah, right.

What's really sad though is Japan on the whole has stopped caring. People have gone back to the routine and are tired of hearing about Fukushima.

It is a lot like the USA and the gulf oil spill.


It is probably partly due to the sense of helplessness. No one have a good idea what to do to resolve the situation. So they just shut down and hope it goes away.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby kirtu » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:05 am

Huseng wrote:What's really sad though is Japan on the whole has stopped caring. People have gone back to the routine and are tired of hearing about Fukushima.

It is a lot like the USA and the gulf oil spill.


People in the US haven't forgotten about the oil spill at all.


Huseng wrote:That being said, there was apparently a spike in infant mortality rates on the west coast of North America following the start of the Fukushima fiasco. The winds carry it across the pacific to the west coast of North America.



If true it would be coincidental.

There already is radioactive contamination across the planet due to this.


How much? Any is too much but we can't get carried away here. I saw a piece on NHK the other night that showed a poultry farm with all it's chickens starved to death because people wouldn't make feed deliveries in an area with radiation 1000x's normal. 1000 times normal is nothing (from the perspective of a person who was on board to fight a nuclear war as part of the military in the early 80's - not that that would have been all that healthy or desirable). It's not desirable of course but this level of radiation only raises cancer risk by a few percent over a lifetime. I'd question eating eggs from the chickens but letting them starve to death? That was wrong. In general reports on NHK on areas around Fukashima are alarmist and overblown and the risks are overblown in the short term and in the long run. Having said that they do have to get the situation under control and begin cleanup and stop polluting the air, ground and ocean. To NHK's credit they have usually said that most of the contamination is from isotopes of iodine and so the half-life can be predicted and in six months to a few years the danger from those particles will be reduced to nothing measurable going forward.

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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby gyougan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:58 am

"To NHK's credit they have usually said that most of the contamination is from isotopes of iodine and so the half-life can be predicted and in six months to a few years the danger from those particles will be reduced to nothing measurable going forward."

Cesium and Strontium have been detected at numerous locations and this stuff is going to disappear any time soon.

Given that tea as far away from Fukushima as Shizuoka is contaminated, Japan's future looks very bleak to me. I'm afraid the Japanese have no other choice than to raise safety levels and consume whatever they produce. They just can't start importing all their food. The Japanese will have to accept the fact that they are going to have to live with radiation for a very long time.

I am going to Japan this summer. I am not worried about airborne radiation in Kansai area, but I am a little bit concerned about food. How can I know the food that I am eating is not coming Tohoku? The J-gov obviously does all it can to foster a "business-as-usual" mentality and that means that a lot of potentially dangerous food is going to the market.

Anyway, I love Japan and will keep visiting no matter how bad it gets!
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby Indrajala » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:05 am

gyougan wrote:I am going to Japan this summer. I am not worried about airborne radiation in Kansai area, but I am a little bit concerned about food. How can I know the food that I am eating is not coming Tohoku? The J-gov obviously does all it can to foster a "business-as-usual" mentality and that means that a lot of potentially dangerous food is going to the market.


I understand that mass produced foods (like bento lunch boxes) make use of cheap ingredients (anything from up north is cheap right now) as it is cost effective. The rice crop is harvested in September, so any rice you eat between now and then will be from last year's harvest.

If you can't read kanji, then you won't know where your food is coming from. However, anything prepared or mass produced will probably not have the source of the ingredients. It might just say domestically produced 国産, but that could mean it was grown beside the Fukushima plant for all you know.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby gyougan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:30 am

Huseng wrote:If you can't read kanji, then you won't know where your food is coming from. However, anything prepared or mass produced will probably not have the source of the ingredients. It might just say domestically produced 国産, but that could mean it was grown beside the Fukushima plant for all you know.


I can read kanji so at least I can check if the source of food is written. On the other hand, I guess it doesn't really matter what I consume during 3 weeks because when it comes to radition it's the long time accumulation that matters. It's not my own health that I am concerned about. It's the children of Tohoku:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/06/radiation-in-japan-nosebleed-diarrhea.html

This is a very disturbing article. It seems that there is huge ignorance about the severity of this disaster. Clearly these children should be evacuated but for some reason the government is doing almost nothing. It seems that the image that everything is back to normal is more important than children's health.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby kirtu » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:13 pm

gyougan wrote: It's not my own health that I am concerned about. It's the children of Tohoku:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/06/radiation-in-japan-nosebleed-diarrhea.html

This is a very disturbing article. It seems that there is huge ignorance about the severity of this disaster. Clearly these children should be evacuated but for some reason the government is doing almost nothing. It seems that the image that everything is back to normal is more important than children's health.


It's hard to see how radiation on the level of 11 millisieverts/hr could produce nosebleeds in children. Were there reports about low level radiation effects from Chernobyl and the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Update: And Kirt is a complete idiot. 1. My tendency is to address these issues from the perspective of a person well-trained in nuclear, chemical and biological warfare because that was part of my background and had I stayed in the military that would have been what I did full-time (US military officers take a secondary specialty that usually becomes their actual full-time job after the first 3-6 years). Specifically we were trained to think of fighting in such an environment and mere nuclear or chemical pollution would hardly have been a concern except after the war. Thankfully that scenario never happened. But way back then we didn't use sieverts. 1 sievert = 100 rem/rad. 2. Basic math: while lower radiation rates are being mentioned in the press, rates as high as 11 millisieverts/hr are mentioned. 11/1000 sieverts/hr = 0.264 sieverts/day = 1.848 sieverts/wk = 7.392 sieverts/month. Anyone living in such an environment is in mortal danger. Children are especially subject to low levels of radiation. I had the wrong conversion in my head thinking that 1 sievert = 1 rad (and even if that were true the environment would be hostile for children).

So the next question would be: NHK is publishing radiation maps done by governmental and university sources. Are they readily available to the public and clearly explained?

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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:19 pm

I'd suggest the phrase applicable may be..."get used to it".

Not the radiation...... but the governments complicity in the coverup of the amount of radiation released, and the damage.

It is now admitted that at least three total melt downs has occured. The implication of just one occuring considered prior to this event was enormous.

A comedy of misinformation intended to protect the powers that be and corporate interest. Where exactly is global media right now?

The peoples...forget about it. When life expectancies suddenly are found(ten years from now), to dramatically depreciate and infant mortality to have appreciated, the consequences will be apparent.
But they will refuse to see it as to see it means they must look not away but towards. As peoples eating cheeseburgers and fries refuse to see the implications of their dietary choices.
So as a talk show host is inclinded to say..time marches on. The commoners......those huddled masses, that get used, abused, and refused, by in the main...their own hand, and are implicated in the evidenciary of this particular torid tale.


Such is humanity.

Go eating, like in Toyko, a restaurant..... :woohoo: I would first have to have my brain parbroiled and sauteed to do such a thing, voluntarily.
But I have taken the time to research the issue. Most do not, and depend upon researchers, to enable the information for them. Never bothering to compare and contrast to verify most truth containing.
As most do with most all things of the economic and politic.

So we as consequence have things such as notions of nuclear power being a viable alternative and continuance of things as they are...it is much more confortable this way. We don't have to look to closely at ourselves...that would be most uncomfortable.

No personal offense intended G....by statements above are all generalities not intended at you or your issue.

But I also have some professional training in the regards of radiation it seems....this, .."I guess it doesn't really matter what I consume during 3 weeks because when it comes to radition .

....is not fact. YOu may be harmed by going into this area with this as your knowledge base. Please take the time to educate yourself to the issue. Especially if others may be following your lead. It is rather complex, for me to explain. Educate yourself before going...that is essential.
You are at present not.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby gyougan » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:18 am

Ron,

Sure, I know nothing about radiation.

Do you mean that a three week vacation to Western Japan (more than 500 kilometers away from Fukushima) is a severe risk to health? If so, you are indirectly proposing that most of Japan will become a dead zone in few years time.

I'll stick to imported food as much as I can though. Or Japanese food where the prefecture of origin is clearly stated.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby gyougan » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:20 am

kirtu wrote:It's hard to see how radiation on the level of 11 millisieverts/hr could produce nosebleeds in children.


Radiation is not uniformly distributed. There could be 'hot spots' with radiation levels much higher than in their surrounding areas.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby kirtu » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:42 pm

gyougan wrote:
kirtu wrote:It's hard to see how radiation on the level of 11 millisieverts/hr could produce nosebleeds in children.


Radiation is not uniformly distributed. There could be 'hot spots' with radiation levels much higher than in their surrounding areas.


11 millisieverts/hr is a short term deadly situation of a child. They should be evacuated. I didn't access the information properly when I wrote that and have amended my posting. I am well aware of hot spots, etc. I took the worst case reported (mis-accessed it) and then asked for a radiation map. NHK recently ran at least one story about a university producing a map in the mountains outside the two zones (or perhaps on the edge of the second zone). There were numerous hot spots on the road that they were taking.

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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:10 pm

G

The problem is governmentally and feasabiiity wise the areas potentially contaminated as KIrtu and others mentioned are to densely populated to allow for such to be done. This is not Chernoble, a area of very rural character which may be cordorned off and forgotton about. This is Japan, as you know a basically entirely populated place. Rural to a Japanese is not to many peoples.

So the government is in a bit of a pickle. Once considered nonacceptable levels of contamination are suddenly being upwardly moved.
No new science supports these moves. Child exposure is included in these new standards.

The biggest danger to one visiting as H mentions is within the food chain. It is virtually impossible to determine what is or is not entering the chain at this time. Particles of radiation may precipitate in a full melt down of both the long and short term variety. And what is implicated here is also, long term storage radiation, fuel rods whose properties differ as well.
So as to what is likely out there...I'd say its a smorgasboard. Check the experts via a simple search, and compare them all. Be very carefull as corporate interest is at stake here so oppositional view may be not quite easy to obtain. Select alternative media as well as main stream and check to see for any consistancies between the two. Usually that is where the truth lies. Nothing to my opinion has ever presented in history like this, despite war prior melt down and nuclear bomb...this is that varied.

My word on it for what it's worth, (I do have several professional past trainings in this regard some provided by military source)...so I am not strictly speaing speaking out my a@#.

Seafood at this time is out of the question, to include kelp and seaweeds, quite often innocuously present in Japanese foods.
Some particles, as but a brief mention.... such as alpha emitting issues may be stopped by as simple a means as a paper barrier. Injectesting a alpha particle however may be a differing matter entirely.
Likewise are injesting other radioactive particles that may have very longer durations for exposure and damage.
If one injests something it is not a question of three weeks exposure. Some things substitute for potassium in our bodies physiology and substitute for potassium in bone building, which occurs continually in a human.
So we have these things with injestion in our bodies in a permenant fashion. Some others with inhalation precipitate to certain organs such as the thyroid.

None of thisly mostly excepting the critical exposure presents immediately. More characteristically they but do dramatically lower life expectancy.
Life expectancies of uranium miners for instance dramaticallly fall but immediate death of workers actively involved in mining....show no effect.
Dust, radioactive dust, of simple things of low relative radioactiveity such as found in uranium mining tailing, inhaled have long tern known negative consequence.

So it is a bit complex, and better you educate yourself to it then me to attempt such or claim to know each and every nuance to this thing. I am not a authority despite training in a functional response capacity and supervisory functional response capacity.
I can to a extent however read through the bullcrap being proported as fact.

They cannot make the areas exposed into a dead zone. It is impossible. As they cannot basically even stop fishing in their contaminated zones. So important is that to their increasingly fragile economy. They cannot practically import all their contaiminated foods.There is no means and on such short term it would spell economic catastrophy. So they change how we determine what is a dead zone. They barter long term for short term benefit. I would do the same in their position.
Obstruction confusion and collusion to minimize the accident are the only constants I find present in governmental and corporate response so far.
I would probably do that also.

If I went I would probably take H's lead and attempt to eat what may be canned or packaged prior to the incident. Eating out.....I can't say I would trust it at all. Some may mean well but have bad result, stateing this is from here or there but not really knowing where. Perhaps some very remote locatons with strictly home grown things, perhaps that could be found. But widely used item perhaps, that may even be found not local.

Educate yourself...it is your responsibility, not mine. For yourself and others you may travel with, for their protection.
If I was in your situtation I would at the present moment be a qualified expert, having spent hours and hours researching the issue.
YOu must do that. You admit you don't know. That is the most important step.The rest is easy.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby kirtu » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:55 pm

Here are some radiation maps but they look like they need some more work:

http://www.gebweb.net/japan-radiation-map/
http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=4870

This is a crowdsourced map of current radiation levels and looks like the best map so far:
http://www.safecast.org/

On the Safecast.org map most of the readings are in microsieverts/hr. 1 microsievert/hr = 0.0001 rem/hr. In the US adults in a working environment should not be exposed to more that 5 rems/year (5000 millirems). There are readings on that map that exceed 100 microsieverts/hr (100 microsieverts = 0.1 millisieverts). So if a person is in an environment exposed to 100 microsieverts that means 0.01 rem/hr so in 500 hours, 20.8 days, they would have to leave the area permanently under normal conditions. Children have a safe limit 10x's lower than adults.

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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:46 pm

I could not manage to get that last map to prompt.

That aside it needless to say is hard in the national media to get current information.
Democracy now as a alternative media source has some recent stuff.. Al Jazeera has some recent stuff as well.

Here is a very partial exerpt from one democracy now transcript..."AMY GOODMAN: Bob Alvarez, can you talk about this contamination of the oceans?

ROBERT ALVAREZ: Yes. As you know, the Japanese government, in its report to the IAEA, said it had underestimated the amount of radioactivity released to the atmosphere during the first week and that it amounts to roughly 40 million curies of radioactivity. What they failed to mention is that they discharged an equally large amount into the ocean, about 20 million curies, and that the — what they’re counting here is the radioactive iodine and radioactive cesium.

Radioactive cesium is of most concern because it has a half-life of 30 years, it gives off potentially dangerous external penetrating radiation, and it is absorbed into the food chain and other biota as if it were potassium. So as it goes up the food chain, it accumulates, and by the time it reaches people who consume this food, the levels are higher than they originally were when they entered the environment. There is a stretch of ocean floor offshore from the reactor site that’s about 300 kilometers wide — I don’t recall, several kilometers — 300 kilometers long, rather, and several kilometers wide of cesium-137. That’s a very, very serious concern because of the fact that this is really a fundamental element of the aquatic food chain for the food supply for the country of Japan.

AMY GOODMAN: Aileen Mioko Smith, can you talk about the changing of what is considered acceptable radiation limits at the schools
?" and the conversaton goes on...

They can be quaried and the interviews read or listened to.
I again would not take any one source. But if you say combine dn with aljazeera and find another, stateing the same thing, alternative media or not, there is probably truth there, if the materials are sourced differently. National media I would be very leary of. LIke during the gulf spill they bought the corporate line hook line and sinker until it became obvious to to many such was not the case. Then they started to report with accuracy the magnitude of that thing.

This one it seems they have just seen fit to now mostly completely ignore. Report it but in a very low key manner. Third page stuff.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:46 am

I live in Tokyo and have been somewhat cautious about what I'm eating, but not paranoid. Maybe I should be.

They're apparently testing all the food being produced around Fukushima and the neighbouring prefectures. This is of course the government who is saying this, so take it with a grain of salt.

Actually in the case of the radiation being dumped in the ocean it should alarm anyone who eats seafood no matter where they live. Fish are mobile. The leaked radiation will disperse, but it will spread.

I don't eat meat or fish, so that isn't an issue for me. Still, the vegetables are a concern.

Fortunately I'm jumping ship in two months and heading to Taiwan probably. I still feel concerned though for the millions of people in Japan who may be exposed long-term to radioactive substances in their food.
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"Grand daddy of all industrial accidents."

Postby Indrajala » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:08 pm



You should watch this video.

"Grand daddy of all industrial accidents."

They outright lied to us. Completely moronic political and corporate elite.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:35 pm

On the bright side...something like this may awaken a person or two to what their real role in the scheme of things is in the vision of those that hold power.

Probably not but..maybe :smile:

Give it time... whne global warming really gets rolling(shortly)....this will seem a minor blip.

Billions will die unnaturally as consequence. People just confuse money and power with intelligence. Assumeing there is great great design and intention. Incredibly clever manuerverings. Grand schemes.
There is not. Incredibly incredibly stupid they are.
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Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:58 am

Most amazingly in the US in the state of Nebraska there is now a nuclear power plant built in 1973 that is in a flood condition, entirely surrounded by flood waters.
The emergency generators are as of yet still functioning. If however the flood did become somewhat of more depth, that may not be the situation any longer. The flood waters are for now being held back by temporary dams and a earthen berm which have both really not held together all that well.
The flooding is expected to continue to some extent for at least a month. The plant is now sans the damming..under water. With no emergency generators if they get flooded....same situation as in Japan basically.

The amazing stuipidity of these peoples to build such a plant in a flood plane. They are that stupid..it is simply amazing.
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