many questions about Rainbow body - help please

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many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:09 am

hi everyone,

what is the rainbow body? is attaining it the same thing as achieving physical immortality? rainbow bodies live in pure lands or heavens for eternity? why is tibetan buddhism the only buddhist sect that teaches the rainbow body? did this arise out of the bon tradition in tibet?
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby ground » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:35 am

Has there been a "rainbow body" before you heard or read about it?

But there may have been suffering before anybody teaches / has taught you the "truth of suffering".

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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby heart » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:40 pm

maestro wrote:hi everyone,

what is the rainbow body? is attaining it the same thing as achieving physical immortality? rainbow bodies live in pure lands or heavens for eternity? why is tibetan buddhism the only buddhist sect that teaches the rainbow body? did this arise out of the bon tradition in tibet?


No, the rainbow body is standard in Buddhist Dzogchen and someone that have a rainbow body is not a sentient being anymore. Eternity and time and pure or non-pure is not a subject for them. Nor do they dwell anywhere in particular. They are fully enlightened Buddhas.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:51 pm

hi,

I don't understand if this is the highest attainment why don't we see highly realized zen masters or theravada masters attain this body when their flesh body dies? I've heard people who attained rainbow bodies are reborn on earth for some reason such as Ayu Khandro? why?

In 2004 Khempo Yurmed Tinly Rinpoche (Abbot of both Gantay Monastery and Zilnon Kagyeling Monastery-- as well as the Dalai Lama's choice to represent the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism at the United Nations Millennium World Peace Summit) recognized one of his students as the reincarnation of Ayu Khandro. She was born in 1963, and lives in the United States.[citation needed]
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:30 pm

maestro wrote:hi,

I don't understand if this is the highest attainment why don't we see highly realized zen masters or theravada masters attain this body when their flesh body dies? I've heard people who attained rainbow bodies are reborn on earth for some reason such as Ayu Khandro? why?

In 2004 Khempo Yurmed Tinly Rinpoche (Abbot of both Gantay Monastery and Zilnon Kagyeling Monastery-- as well as the Dalai Lama's choice to represent the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism at the United Nations Millennium World Peace Summit) recognized one of his students as the reincarnation of Ayu Khandro. She was born in 1963, and lives in the United States.[citation needed]


In order to attain the rainbow body one must complete the four visions ( nangwa zhi) of Togal. This is why Therevada and Zen masters dont manifest the rainbow body.
When one attains the rainbow they have the capacity to emanate manifestations.
I havent heard of the Ayu Khandro tulku.
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 pm

so zen and theravada masters have to be reborn until they attain rainbow body in order to be liberated from samsara forever? In that case an Arahat will have to be reborn again? This is a big contradiction between early buddhism and tibetan buddhism.
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:13 pm

maestro wrote:so zen and theravada masters have to be reborn until they attain rainbow body in order to be liberated from samsara forever? In that case an Arahat will have to be reborn again? This is a big contradiction between early buddhism and tibetan buddhism.

not necessarily.
the secondary cause for the rainbow body is togal, zen and theravada dont have togal so they dont have the rainbow body.
One can be liberated from samsara without attaining the rainbow body. The rainbow body is just one way in which the potentiality of buddhahood is actualized and it is only done through the higher trainings of Buddhist Dzogchen.
there is no contradiction, the dzogchen teachings recognize the different methods of practice and liberation of the other 8 yanas.
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:51 pm

so one can say dzogchen masters attain spiritual and physical immortality while zen and theravada masters only spiritual immortality?
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:54 pm

maestro wrote:so one can say dzogchen masters attain spiritual and physical immortality while zen and theravada masters only spiritual immortality?

the rainbow body is not physical.
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby alpha » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:52 pm

i have heard someone saying that there is also another type of buddhahood which is called the "light body" .

if there is such a thing it would be very interesting to know what would be the qualitative difference ,so to speak ,between the two.
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby kirtu » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:46 pm

maestro wrote:so zen and theravada masters have to be reborn until they attain rainbow body in order to be liberated from samsara forever? In that case an Arahat will have to be reborn again? This is a big contradiction between early buddhism and tibetan buddhism.


Well, according to Tibetan Buddhism an Arhat is liberated from samsara but this is not the full liberation of Buddhahood. Their defilements are eliminated but they still have some obscurations regarding wisdom.

When an Arhat dies, they are reborn in a formless realm where they are in constant meditation. After a long, long time (cosmic time here) they are roused from their samadhi by a Buddha and are reborn as high Bodhisattvas (6-8th bhumi - I'll look the details up on this).

To my knowledge, Tibetan Buddhist teachers don't say what happens to Zen masters upon death (of course they don't address Chinese Mahayana masters either but I know that many Mahayana [and Theravadin] masters are viewed in high regard).

Personally I have added the name of my former Zen teacher to the list of enlightened masters whom I pray for, for their swift rebirth to free all beings.

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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby kirtu » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:52 pm

Nangwa wrote:the secondary cause for the rainbow body is togal,...


Remind me of the primary cause please.

There is a teaching of rainbow body outside of Dzogchen in the Vajrayana in conjunction with a particular Highest Yoga Tantra practice also. I mentioned this to Malcolm/Namdrol on eSangha and his response was that actually Dzogchen rainbow body was different from the rainbow body result from this particular HYT.

There is also the empty body of Kalachakra which is in many ways similar to rainbow body.

In all three cases this level of attainment means that the person has attained total enlightenment (although in Tantra there seem to be levels of Buddhahood as well).

Kirt
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Re: many questions about Rainbow body - help please

Postby Josef » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:43 pm

kirtu wrote:
Nangwa wrote:the secondary cause for the rainbow body is togal,...


Remind me of the primary cause please.

There is a teaching of rainbow body outside of Dzogchen in the Vajrayana in conjunction with a particular Highest Yoga Tantra practice also. I mentioned this to Malcolm/Namdrol on eSangha and his response was that actually Dzogchen rainbow body was different from the rainbow body result from this particular HYT.

There is also the empty body of Kalachakra which is in many ways similar to rainbow body.

In all three cases this level of attainment means that the person has attained total enlightenment (although in Tantra there seem to be levels of Buddhahood as well).

Kirt

Hi Kirt,
As is most often the case Malcolm is correct.
The primary cause (as far as i know) is Rigpa.
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