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Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso - Page 20 - Dhamma Wheel

Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:00 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:24 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:30 am

Thanks Bhante. Really, I mean it. Good post, and a lot for me to absorb there and learn from.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:19 am

Last edited by bodhabill on Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:29 am

Hello Bill,

I wonder could you clarify for us ... Do you practise within the Forest Tradition? And, if so, through which Monastery, and under which Abbot?

I'm assuming that you must because of your blunt outspokenness and certainty about motives.

I practise within the Forest Tradition, and under the tutelage of Ajahn Dhammasiha who was at the WAM.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:28 am

"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:38 am

Hello Bill,

Please disregard my previous post, which wasn't meant to be offensive to you.
My apologies for any discomfort or irritation you have experienced.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:49 am

"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:03 am

I have comer across the Korwat manual from WPN which outlines the so-called monastic etiquette of Wat Pah Nanachat. Interestingly they have a little section on who visiting Bhikkhuni and other nuns should be treated. it is dated from 2003 and written by Ajahn Chandako.

see http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... quette.pdf

(it is also interesting on how they treat visiting monks, both Theravada and non-Theravada)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:42 am

Here is a WPP response to that recent press conference,
taken from http://dhammalight.com/official/pdf/Res ... -01-10.pdf

A Response to the 30th December 2009 Article, “Monks Target Western Clergy”
On 28th December 2009, a representative delegation of senior monks from the Wat
Nong Pah Pong Sangha held a press conference in response to various articles in the
major Thai newspapers released earlier between the 20th to 24th December. These
articles effectively stated that the Council of Elders and the Office of National
Buddhism had done everything in their power in regards to Ajahn Brahmavamso and
the bhikkhuni ordinations and that the future status of Ajahn Brahmavamso as abbot
of Bodhinyana Monastery and the ownership of that monastery was left up to Wat
Nong Pah Pong’s decision. The articles effectively left the responsibility of this issue
back on Wat Nong Pah Pong to proceed with. In order to make clear Wat Nong Pah
Pong’s stance, it was decided by Luang Por Liem and other governing committee
members to make a statement to the Thai media. A very unprecendented move in Wat
Nong Pah Pong’s history.
Although this matter has been cleared up within the Thai press, it seems that the
article in English has stirred up and agitated Western readers. This has been caused
by some misrepresentations of the events of the press conference and the editorial
language used in the article. Wat Nong Pah Pong feels that it is best to clear up these
misunderstandings.
The article says that the Thai Sangha “want the properties of Thai temples in the West
to come under the ownership of the Thai Sangha to ensure complete control.” In
reality, Wat Nong Pah Pong stated in the press conference that it had no power in
which to retake ownership of Bodhinyana Monastery, even if the land on which it
was built on was initially offered to Ajahn Chah (Bodhinyana Thera) and Wat Nong
Pah Pong. Wat Nong Pah Pong requested the Office of National Buddhism to reevaluate
the way that monasteries in the West are governed so that confusion and
division such as with the present situation would be avoided in the future.
The most misleading section is where it is written that “If action is not taken, the
council fears that more women could be ordained in the West,” and quotes Phra Kru
Opaswuthikorn saying that "Sooner or later, we'll see female monks everywhere."
Although this is a sensational statement in the eyes of a Western reader, a more
accurate translation would be, “If we (Wat Nong Pah Pong) had not taken any action,
it would open the doors in the future for women to ordain as bhikkhunis within the
Wat Nong Pah Pong western sangha, running into the same problem we have at the
moment (breaking Thai law)”. The issue is not that Wat Nong Pah Pong is against
women ordaining, but rather due to Wat Nong Pah Pong’s status as a member of the
Thai Sangha and its obligation to follow Thai Sangha Laws.
Further, this article’s portrayal of facts is to be questioned. It cites that “two women”
were ordained, instead of the four women which were actually ordained.
In conclusion, we would like readers of this article to be wary of the editorial
sensationalism and misrepresentations that have been given to this press release. It
was originally intended to reply to the questions the Thai media had on Wat Nong
Pah Pong’s stance in relation to the present situation with Ajahn Brahmavamso and
Bodhinyana Monastery’s status, not a gender equality and power-seizing issue that it
has been made into.
The Administrative Committee of Wat Nong Pah Pong
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Bankei

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:43 am

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:44 am

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:48 am

Notice how the WPP committee members did not give a reason why the ordination was invalid.

Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:59 am

Before I make any proper comment I am going to compare the two in detail!
Thanks for sharing I was going to look there later on for a response.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:18 pm

Note that the Dhammalight response to the Press report did not make any comment on Pra Kru Opas statement on the non-recognition of the Siladhara order.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:43 pm

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodom » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:48 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:43 pm

Hi All,
the WNPP statement regarding the press conference.
Looks like they were sorting out the cause of the problem, instead of dealing with the effect of the problem first, and stating their stance on the ownership rather than trying work out how to take ownership, as the initial article suggests.
As pilgrim notes that the statement did not make any comment on the stated non-recognition of the Siladhara order, and it doesn’t, but it does mention ordination of women, as the Siladhara line is recognised as an aspect of the Western Thai Sangha by the authorities in Thailand at the very least, or as an aspect of the Thai Sangha at best, the comment may have been an aspect of the sensationalism (as WNPP describe it), borrowed from elsewhere, either by someone who is apart of the WNPP group or outside? Considering that some of the facts, at least, are inaccurate to the events, and the Korwat comments on how to treat visiting bhikkhunis and Siladharas (as I quoted above,) this, to me, seams a likely reason for the lack of mention.
there is some more in the Korwat PDF I have which I will add to the above quoting post now.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:19 pm

Hello all,

I posted this in another thread ~ but it's worth the read:

Abstract
"The present article critically reviews four theories regarding the foundation of the order of nuns: (I) the suggestion that the account of the foundation of the nuns' order was devised only after the division between the Sthavira and the Mahasamghika schools; (II) the assumption that an alternative account of this event can be found in the Maitrisimit; (III) the conjecture that nuns were in existence before Mahaprajapati Gautami went forth; and (IV) the hypothesis that the order of nuns came into being only after the Buddha had passed away."

Theories on the Foundation of the Nuns' Order – A Critical Evaluation by Bhikkhu Analayo
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha356.htm

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:15 pm

For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.

Thailand is still a third world country, underdeveloped in both facilities and social systems.

Thailand is an extremely Hierarchical society with the feeling of senior/junior arising in many situations. The language reflects this too. The Sangha is more hierarchical that the average society. When monks meet they often ask each other early on how many 'rains' they have so they can work out who is senior. This will determine sitting order, walking order, language used, priorities etc. It seems WPP monks are more extreme in this area than the average monk too.

Monks are generally not criticised openly. Behind there backs people will complain. In my Temple the Abbott purchased a luxury 4WD car for his driver to taken him from meeting to meeting. Many complained that he should have spent the money on a new Sala, but no one would tell him directly. Some people also refuse to say anything they consider bad behind their backs in private.

Women in Thailand have much less opportunities to the men. It is rare for a woman to hold a high level job or to have power. To put it bluntly women are there for sex and cleaning.

Education levels are very low. The average Thai knows nothing of the world. General knowledge of news from other countries is very lacking. Even at the top universities the levels are not comparable to the West. Cheating on exams is rife too.

Even knowledge of Buddhism, Pali Buddhism is extemely low. The average monk would never have read a sutta or even a general book on Buddhism. Some may read popular books on fortune telling, monks with powers, supernatural stuff etc. Ask a monk about the theory of anatta.

Academic studies on Buddhism in Thailand are of low quality, usually, with proper referencing lacking. There would be little written objectively on the history of Buddhism in Thai. They may have heard about the word Mahayana but have no concept of what it is. Most don't care anyway. They view Thai Theravada as pristine and pure, but ask them about all the problems and they will start squirming in their seats. The preceptors who have sex (many have been caught, how many haven't?)- does that mean the Thai Buddhist lineage is broken?
Even in that transcript above the monks claim to know the vinaya, but they probably have not even read the Bhikkhuni vinaya. Some did not know about the structure of the ordination ceremony for Bhikkhuni. They would have no reason to read or study about the Bhikkhuni anyway.

There is also a big city/country divide in Thailand. A big difference with things in the countryside much worse than in Bangkok. Less opportunities for women in the countryside, less eduction in general, less international news, more 'traditional' thinking. This is especially so in the Northeast Isarn region.

Now take the WPP senior monks. Most are from Isarn. Most have been monks since childhood. Most would have never had a girlfriend or married, never been around women. Most cannot speak English, maybe some even cannot speak standard Thai. Reading is discouraged in this group - even the study of Buddhism is discouraged. Most have never been overseas, some never even to the city of Bangkok.

There are also nationalistic feelings. Thailand is special, with a benevolent Buddhist King etc. Thailand has taken over as the caretaker of Buddhism now that Sri Lanka is openly corrupt.

Also remember that the Western monks of WPP are only a small minority of the group. They have little control or influence and many of these monks have lived there so long they begin to think like Thais.

So taking all of that into account it is understandable that they hold wrong views. (doesn't make it acceptable though)

Bankei
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