Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:31 am

Namdrol wrote:The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen. If we ignore traditional accounts, text critically speaking the yogas we know about from Dzogchen all seem to date after 950 CE., developed in Tibet and never existed in India, apart from proto-thogal of the type we find in the Kalacakra "empty forms" [shunyatā bimba] practice.


Well that can't be if Dzogchen learned about channels and chakras from Hindu Indians. I can see that with regard to Longde, there are channels used there that are no where in Hindu yoga. But as to Togal and Yangti, the three center channels, the junction at the base, heart and brow chakas are vitally important. In Dzogchen, there's always OM AH HUNG in three places and vajra recitation, for example, which seems to find its origin in Guhyasamaja.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:34 am

Namdrol wrote:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen.
N



There was actually a recognition school of Trika shaivism. Surprisingly there is zero information about it on the internet. But in Gavin Flood's book "The Tantric Body", he talks about it. They even had a mirror analogy like Dzogchen.

But the Muslims destroyed this tradition along with Vajrayana (in India).
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:37 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen. If we ignore traditional accounts, text critically speaking the yogas we know about from Dzogchen all seem to date after 950 CE., developed in Tibet and never existed in India, apart from proto-thogal of the type we find in the Kalacakra "empty forms" [shunyatā bimba] practice.


Well that can't be if Dzogchen learned about channels and chakras from Hindu Indians.


Well, there are traces of post-Indian adaptation nadi theory in the Vima Nyinthig material. For example, in one Vima nyinthig text in a passage describing the central channel, it uses the term avadhūti, but in another passage directly related, it describes a different channel as the kun 'dar ma. The problem with this is that kun 'dar ma is the Tibetan translation of avadhūti.

The point I was making was that Buddhist Yogis in India adapted Hindu yogic terms to Buddhism. Then, in Tibet, Nyingma Yogis adapted newer tantric materials [i.e. mother tantra] being brought into Tibet after 950 and used this material as the basis for reformulating their yogic traditions, including Dzogchen.

N
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:38 am

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen.
N



There was actually a recognition school of Trika shaivism. Surprisingly there is zero information about it on the internet. But in Gavin Flood's book "The Tantric Body", he talks about it. They even had a mirror analogy like Dzogchen.

But the Muslims destroyed this tradition along with Vajrayana (in India).



There are some similarities with Trika, but they are quite superficial. However, there was a lot of interaction between Kashmir and Tibet, and before Katmandhu became the major place for Tibetans to go, Kashmir was the place in the late tenth century.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:40 am

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen.
N



There was actually a recognition school of Trika shaivism. Surprisingly there is zero information about it on the internet. But in Gavin Flood's book "The Tantric Body", he talks about it. They even had a mirror analogy like Dzogchen.

But the Muslims destroyed this tradition along with Vajrayana (in India).



There are some similarities with Trika, but they are quite superficial. However, there was a lot of interaction between Kashmir and Tibet, and before Katmandhu became the major place for Tibetans to go, Kashmir was the place in the late tenth century.


To add a bit -- we just don't know a lot. All we have is the texts.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:56 am

No matter the "history", chakras are real.

Where do you think you feel your emotions in the physical body?

You don't have to be a Vajrayana practitioner to know this.

You just have to go on a job interview, a date or to the DMV (i.e. emotional situations)
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:33 am

Enochian wrote:No matter the "history", chakras are real.

Where do you think you feel your emotions in the physical body?

You don't have to be a Vajrayana practitioner to know this.

You just have to go on a job interview, a date or to the DMV (i.e. emotional situations)


Can be explained away as nerves.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:37 am

You feel it in the classical chakras like throat, heart etc.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:41 am

Enochian wrote:You feel it in the classical chakras like throat, heart etc.



where there are a lot nerves...
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:45 am

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:You feel it in the classical chakras like throat, heart etc.



where there are a lot nerves...



Which is why I never understood the point of visualizing chakras in the mind.

Chakras are more or less natural physical structures that you can feel.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:14 am

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:You feel it in the classical chakras like throat, heart etc.



where there are a lot nerves...



Which is why I never understood the point of visualizing chakras in the mind.

Chakras are more or less natural physical structures that you can feel.


Because visualizing them brings the winds into them, then people do this for they various purposes: bliss, illusory body, etc.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:25 am

adinatha wrote:
Because visualizing them brings the winds into them, then people do this for they various purposes: bliss, illusory body, etc.



Yeah but you can do this by feel. For example you literally feel the navel. There is no need to create an artificial visualization of the navel chakra.

After a couple of years of this tactile body awareness you can start to feel the center channel itself.

But I'm just a human, not a Vajrayana practitioner :shrug:
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:05 am

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Because visualizing them brings the winds into them, then people do this for they various purposes: bliss, illusory body, etc.



Yeah but you can do this by feel. For example you literally feel the navel. There is no need to create an artificial visualization of the navel chakra.

After a couple of years of this tactile body awareness you can start to feel the center channel itself.

But I'm just a human, not a Vajrayana practitioner :shrug:


The Vajra yogis know this. The instructions are to both visualize light and feel the winds moving. Remember, rigpa is essence, nature and energy, sound light and rays. I'm ad libbing here, but my grasp of all this is that if you have some focus on one aspect of rigpa, it is a deviation into extremes. So Vajra yogis will visualize bijas of light, feel the winds and think sound. The gather of winds is completely powerful like this and, because your fictional representation closely resembles the actual fact, you get close to the fact like looking into the mirror.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:26 pm

Enochian wrote:Only later did this tantra come to be interpreted through creative commentary as being about tummo.

From what I can tell, tummo as practiced today has no textual justification save for a couplet from the Hevajra tantra.

Not that it matters, since these things were taught by omniscient Mahasiddhas.


As I mentioned, the tummo in the new tantra schools for the most part depend on Krishnacarya's instruction. However, tummo also shows up in the Sahajasiddhi of Dombhi Heruka.

It seems that indeed Tummo was adapted to Cakrasamvara from the Hevajra system, perhaps because the Samputa tantra is a common commentary to both. The Tummo instructions which are given a verse in Hevajra are elaborated in the Samputa tantra in a section called the Vasantatilaka (which is also a meter in Sanskrit poetics),"the ornament of spring" which may be found in the sixth kalpa of the Samputa (the Samputa is divided into ten kalpas, each having four sub-sections, for a total of roughly forty chapters).

The earliest completion stage manual we have on Cakrasamvara is Ghantapada's five stages (not to be confused with Nagarjuna's five stages connected with Guhyasamaja). Caṇḍalī yoga (gtum mo) is distinctly absent from that text. However, in the outer five deity sadhana written by Chogyal Phagpa, the completion stage given for that sadhana is directly based on subsection two of the sixth section of the Samputa. Perhaps it is because this tradition comes from Mardo Lotawa who also translated Krishancarya's Vasantatilaka.

The completion stage manuals of Krishnacarya all center around the concept of the Vasantatilaka, and one of them is explicitly named as such. Krishnacarya writes that vasanta, spring, means "when the wind ceases, after the breath of the right and the left goes into the nostrils". This Vasantatilaka was also translated by Mardo.

As a testament to the enduring popularity of the Vasantatilaka system, Vanaratna, the last Indian Mahasidda to visit Tibet (15th century) wrote a commentary on Krishnacarya's text some 40 folios in length which is also preserved in the Tengyur.

It is in the commentaries by Sachen on the Krishnacarya corpus that we find the clearest indication of the process of attaining rainbow about according to the Cakrasamvara system in the Sakya school.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:05 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is in the commentaries by Sachen on the Krishnacarya corpus that we find the clearest indication of the process of attaining rainbow about according to the Cakrasamvara system in the Sakya school.


Would it be tummo, illusory body yoga and chulen?
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:20 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It is in the commentaries by Sachen on the Krishnacarya corpus that we find the clearest indication of the process of attaining rainbow about according to the Cakrasamvara system in the Sakya school.


Would it be tummo, illusory body yoga and chulen?



Tummo is a part of the process. Illusory body is a father tantra thing. Chulen does not figure large in Sachen's commentaries but the Indian texts are chalk full of dietary and herbal recommendations for supporting the completion stage all of which would make a vegan cringe.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:24 pm

There is very little info on Krishnacarya on the internet

1. Who was he?

2. Did he really exist?

3. What are the top 3 teachings of his commentorial tradition?

4. Why does he have a name of a Hindu god in his name?
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Enochian wrote:There is very little info on Krishnacarya on the internet

1. Who was he?



An important Mahāsiddha who is well attested to.


2. Did he really exist?


Definitely.

3. What are the top 3 teachings of his commentorial tradition?


I mentioned a couple of them -- he figures large in the Yamari lineages as well.

4. Why does he have a name of a Hindu god in his name?
[/quote]

he doesn't. Krishna means "dark" i.e. the black-skinned acarya.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby mañjughoṣamaṇi » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Enochian wrote:3. What are the top 3 teachings of his commentorial tradition?


The Olipati is a famous work of his. It is relatively early and has been found in the Dunhuang archives.

4. Why does he have a name of a Hindu god in his name?


Kṛṣṇa just means black.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Ok how can someone learn about him?

Namdrol, do you have any good Internet or book sources?
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