Zhang Zhung Namgyal

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

ZZ Namgyal is one of the 24 ZZ Lineage Masters and every Master has so his personal sayings about the Natural State.

Best wishes
KY

How does one remain in the Natural State?
Just leave it directly juast as it is
Don't remove any VISIONS
If you leave whatever arises
spontaneously, just as it is
Then it will become Great Wisdom
This teaching is a very important key
for RELEASING all visions and matter
and matter will liberating them into the Nature

[Tenzin1]

This is fascinating. It almost sounds taoist: the Natural State, the Tao.

[Malcolm]

This is fascinating. It almost sounds taoist: the Natural State, the Tao.

It has nothing to do with Taoism. It is an instruction on togal.

[kalden yungdrung]

This is fascinating. It almost sounds taoist: the Natural State, the Tao.

Wu Chi.jpg (60.39 KiB) Viewed 544 times

Tashi delek,

Taoism has in her philosophy regarding emptiness very near similarities with the Dzogchen aspect Trekchod or the Longde aspect e.g. the emptiness
Taoism has also similarities with their Pa Kua regarding the Bon Ba Gua.

So the emanation from the dualistic principles out of the Wu Chi (emptiness) is nearly equal to the Dzogchen view of the Base or gZhi.

Sure like Mahamudra doesn't know Taoism not the 4 - 6 Lamps. last mentioned Lamps do belong to the Thodgal like Namdrol already did remarked.
Therefore is Dzogchen the emptiness aspect which is inseparable connected with the Lights or the Lamps etc.

The dangerous aspect of only knowing emptiness could lead oneself to the state of nihilism.
We already could watch in the Tibetan history, that Rangtong cannot exist without Shentong. It are like the wings of a bird.


Best wishes
KY

[Malcolm]

Taoism has in her philosophy regarding emptiness very near similarities with the Dzogchen aspect Trekchod or the Longde aspect e.g. the emptiness

Absolutely false.

Taoism has also similarities with their Pa Kua regarding the Bon Ba Gua.

The so called spar kha are the Bagua. These are common to the Tibetan astrological system called ""byung rtsi". They ultimately come from Chinese culture.

So the emanation from the dualistic principles out of the Wu Chi (emptiness) is nearly equal to the Dzogchen view of the Base or gZhi.

Not even remotely similar.

[kalden yungdrung]

Taoism has in her philosophy regarding emptiness very near similarities with the Dzogchen aspect Trekchod or the Longde aspect e.g. the emptiness

Absolutely false.
Tell me please why7 I never would say that would Wu Chi is the same like Trekchod / Longde, but it touches in some way the emptiness aspect, the / that Wu Chi. Wu Chi is an empty circle and it resembles for me the base or the Gzhi we know in Dzogchen, out of which everything is emanated.

Taoism has also similarities with their Pa Kua regarding the Bon Ba Gua.

The so called spar kha are the Bagua. These are common to the Tibetan astrological system called ""byung rtsi". They ultimately come from Chinese culture.
Why are you so sure that the Pa Kua is of Chinese origen? We did discuss this already earlier.

So the emanation from the dualistic principles out of the Wu Chi (emptiness) is nearly equal to the Dzogchen view of the Base or gZhi.

Not even remotely similar.

Well i see here an empty circle out of which is born the duality or everything and that does again have for me the feeling / result of the Base called Gzhi in Dzogchen. So " not even remote" is extreme used here and i see it more closed or in the middle of the road.........


Best wishes
KY

[kirtu]

Taoist will generally tell you that their view of emptiness is still substantial and with at least some Taoists asserting a substantial self. Changes in beings and matter are basically a matter of chi flow of different kinds of chi.

Kirt

[kalden yungdrung]

Taoist will generally tell you that their view of emptiness is still substantial and with at least some Taoists asserting a substantial self. Changes in beings and matter are basically a matter of chi flow of different kinds of chi.

Kirt

Tashi delek,

Taoists like to obtain the eternal body. Well that body is not the Rainbow Body that is sure. That is their way of seeing the "self". In Bon we have also a self called the La, or the carrier or collector of the karma. It is also not the real State because it is based on the dualistic mind of karma. So there are a lot of selves and the contradiction of that selve. Also dificult to understand is there is no self or Anatman in Indian Buddhism, whereas there is a subtle self if one becomes a Buddha.
I understood that one Buddha is not the other Buddha and their 12 vows are also different. So there is a kind of self identity but according Dzogchen does everything come out of the same base. Last mentioned base resembles a lot of the Chinese Taoism origen named the Wu Chi.

What Taoism has common with Dzogchen would only be the source of everything and that is based on emptiness and can we have different kinds of emptiness? Or different names for the same?

Best wishes
KY

[Jinzang]

The point is that there are different sorts of negation. The negation implicit in the wu chi differs from the negation in emptiness. This is clearer in the philosophical presentation of emptiness, which dzogchen does not depart from.

[kalden yungdrung]

The point is that there are different sorts of negation. The negation implicit in the wu chi differs from the negation in emptiness. This is clearer in the philosophical presentation of emptiness, which dzogchen does not depart from.

Tashi delek,

Yes emptiness is a kind of negation and mostly used to eliminate the ego and its self. Therefore we have the 16 forms of emptiness condensed into 4 forms.
But out of the other kind of emptiness there is emanation, called the Gzhi.
It is the latter which i see here as ok for "synchronisation" with the Taoism form of the Wu Chi.
It is seen by me in the light of Dzogchen and not so in the way of the Prasangika Madyamaka philosophy.


Best wishes
KY