new developments in the processing of your corpse

[Aemilius]

Promession is an ecologically-conscious method for disposing of human remains by freeze drying. It was invented and patented in 1999 by the swedish biologist Susanne Wiigh-Mäsek. The body of the deceased is submerged in liquid nitrogen, making the remains so brittle that they shatter into a powder as the result of slight vibrations.
Read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promession

[gregkavarnos]

Ridiculous! Rainbow body is infintely more ecologically sound and you get enlightened to boot!

[Adamantine]

Far more ecologically conscious is sky-burial--
feeding the corpse to the birds-- as long as you're not
saturated with serious western pharmaceuticals(zorastrian towers in India
have killed off most of the local vulture populations through
corpses contaminated with drugs)

[Indrajala]

Far more ecologically conscious is sky-burial--
feeding the corpse to the birds-- as long as you're not
saturated with serious western pharmaceuticals(zorastrian towers in India
have killed off most of the local vulture populations through
corpses contaminated with drugs)

Poor birds. They just wanted a free lunch.

[Aemilius]

Far more ecologically conscious is sky-burial--
feeding the corpse to the birds-- as long as you're not
saturated with serious western pharmaceuticals(zorastrian towers in India
have killed off most of the local vulture populations through
corpses contaminated with drugs)

Poor birds. They just wanted a free lunch.

I've heard the story differently, in India many pesticides have been in constant use that are banned in Europe, thus their food contains far more pesticide remains. In Europe for example the DDT has been banned for ages, but not in India they say. Therefore eating human corpses has not been good for the health of indian vultures.

Here is a good site with photos of birds living in India
http://www.kolkatabirds.com/gallery.htm

[gregkavarnos]

I've heard the story differently, in India many pesticides have been in constant use that are banned in Europe, thus their food contains far more pesticide remains. In Europe for example the DDT has been banned for ages, but not in India they say. Therefore eating human corpses has not been good for the health of indian vultures.

I can't imagine that it would be too good for the health of Indians either!

[Aemilius]

Ridiculous! Rainbow body is infintely more ecologically sound and you get enlightened to boot!

Rainbow body is a sociological phenomenon, it is a perception in a certain group of people.
When they say in yogachara that "water" is perceived differently in different realms, this is true with everything else also! Thus there is no absolute truth what "death" is, death is perceived differently by different beings, by different classes of beings. In actual truth your own experience maybe that you go bodily into Dewachen, but very few people will believe that, will perceive that. And so their imagination creates a rotting corpse that will be found somewhere, which is wholly imaginary, but at the same time very true. Do you see how this goes?

In very special circumstances can something like the rainbow body become manifest and be perceived by a large number of people. Its manifestation is equally a quality of the perceivers.

How do you perceive the magic of David Blaine, David Copperfield or Criss Angel ? Have you seen any of them ? What is your interpretation of it ?

[Aemilius]

I've heard the story differently, in India many pesticides have been in constant use that are banned in Europe, thus their food contains far more pesticide remains. In Europe for example the DDT has been banned for ages, but not in India they say. Therefore eating human corpses has not been good for the health of indian vultures.

I can't imagine that it would be too good for the health of Indians either!

Coming back to ecology, I have heard stories that in some poor countries they have even dug up corpses from graves in order to earn few pennies, these corpses are then used as rawmaterial for making soap and for making stearine for candles.
This is ecological in many ways. Ecology is not about superficial morality, or about conventional superficial customs. It is about ingenuity and usefulness and about surviving in difficult life situations.

[gregkavarnos]

Rainbow body is a sociological phenomenon, it is a perception in a certain group of people.
When they say in yogachara that "water" is perceived differently in different realms, this is true with everything else also! Thus there is no absolute truth what "death" is, death is perceived differently by different beings, by different classes of beings. In actual truth your own experience maybe that you go bodily into Dewachen, but very few people will believe that, will perceive that. And so their imagination creates a rotting corpse that will be found somewhere, which is wholly imaginary, but at the same time very true. Do you see how this goes?

In very special circumstances can something like the rainbow body become manifest and be perceived by a large number of people. Its manifestation is equally a quality of the perceivers.

How do you perceive the magic of David Blaine, David Copperfield or Criss Angel ? Have you seen any of them ? What is your interpretation of it ?

So what you are saying is that rainbow body (and its accompanying practice) is a two bit parlour trick carried out by shoulder pad wearing illusionists posing as yogis and only works in front of a gullible audience of asiatic numbskulls?

[Aemilius]

Rainbow body is a sociological phenomenon, it is a perception in a certain group of people.
When they say in yogachara that "water" is perceived differently in different realms, this is true with everything else also! Thus there is no absolute truth what "death" is, death is perceived differently by different beings, by different classes of beings. In actual truth your own experience maybe that you go bodily into Dewachen, but very few people will believe that, will perceive that. And so their imagination creates a rotting corpse that will be found somewhere, which is wholly imaginary, but at the same time very true. Do you see how this goes?

In very special circumstances can something like the rainbow body become manifest and be perceived by a large number of people. Its manifestation is equally a quality of the perceivers.

How do you perceive the magic of David Blaine, David Copperfield or Criss Angel ? Have you seen any of them ? What is your interpretation of it ?

So what you are saying is that rainbow body (and its accompanying practice) is a two bit parlour trick carried out by shoulder pad wearing illusionists posing as yogis and only works in front of a gullible audience of asiatic numbskulls?

That is the kind of issue I wanted to address: The starting point is that the world is just mind. What is it that makes the miracles of say Karmapa different from those of say David Blaine ? Is it not that you are conditioned to behave differently in the social situation around Karmapa, as an example? I don't think there is any other substantial difference between the two. I didn't say it is a parlour trick. If you are a honest man you can go the Jehovas Witnesses and ask what they think of the rainbow body ? If you really think it is a universal perception, and please do it!

[gregkavarnos]

I think a major difference would be that one is a con-artist out to make a buck and the other an enlightened being striving to bring infinite beings out of suffering (or maybe I am just a gullible fool too). Now try and guess which epithet is referring to whom!

[Aemilius]

I think a major difference would be that one is a con-artist out to make a buck and the other an enlightened being striving to bring infinite beings out of suffering (or maybe I am just a gullible fool too). Now try and guess which epithet is referring to whom!

Do you claim to posses the divine eye, dharma eye, wisdom eye and/or the buddha eye?
Or are just using different labels?
What is it that you are labelling ? Do you see its past, present and future?

[gregkavarnos]

Seems like conjunctivitis is reaching plague proportions around here!

Dude if you reckon that the Karmapa and David Blaine are the same (at the relative level, right, not the ultimate) and their activities are identical, well, what can I say? Good luck on your journey to whateverland!

[Aemilius]

Seems like conjunctivitis is reaching plague proportions around here!

Dude if you reckon that the Karmapa and David Blaine are the same (at the relative level, right, not the ultimate) and their activities are identical, well, what can I say? Good luck on your journey to whateverland!

According to Nagarjuna, (and others in Madhyamaka and Zen), the relative truth and ultimate truth are interdependent and both are necessary, and it is the ultimate truth that leads you to realizing nirvana! See you there !

[gregkavarnos]

According to Nagarjuna, (and others in Madhyamaka and Zen), the relative truth and ultimate truth are interdependent and both are necessary, and it is the ultimate truth that leads you to realizing nirvana! See you there !

Sooooooo.... true! BUT, this is no way means that relative truth IS ultimate truth. Coz when you say that Copperfield and the Karmapa are the same, at the relative level, then you truly have your head lodged up your butt coz at the relative level, quite obviously to anybody, with even a mg of grey matter, they are not. Now if you talk at the absoltue level, of course they are the same. But at the ultimate level Charles Manson is the same as Gandhi, a turd is the same as a diamond, nirvana is the same as samsara.

Unfortunately though the relative level comes along and you have to make decisions like: is killing good or bad? Is lying wholesome or unwholesome? should I shag my best freinds girlfriend or not, etc...

Now if you are a Buddha, a Bodhisattva or even a plain old Mahasiddha obviously your reality does not abide by these rules. But I am going to hazard a guess and say that you are none of the abovementioned. That makes you a common everyday schmuck like me, and we common everyday schmucks have to say that the Karmapa is not an illusionist and that david copperfield is not an enlightened being (either that or go for therapy or heavy sedation).

PS May I be so bold as to draw your attention to this post viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4101&start=20#p44607

[Aemilius]

To Gragkavarnos

You make several mistakes in your logic. First of all it is not the case that buddhas, bodhisattvas and mahasiddhas are always part of an established religious institution, often it has been the contrary, even Shakyamuni Buddha would have been an "unqualified person" to teach or say anything, because he was just a kshatriya. Only brahmanas are qualified and authentic.
Same with regard to bodhisattvas and mahasiddhas, Guru Rimpoche was certainly declared a hoax by the establishement, as an obvious example.
If you strip away the religious belief systems the performances of David Blaine would easily outshine the miraculous feats of Karmapa. And this is on the level of plain reason, and the relative truth.
What is it that makes you believe ?


kindly
Aemilius

[gregkavarnos]

You make several mistakes in your logic. First of all it is not the case that buddhas, bodhisattvas and mahasiddhas are always part of an established religious institution, often it has been the contrary, even Shakyamuni Buddha would have been an "unqualified person" to teach or say anything, because he was just a kshatriya. Only brahmanas are qualified and authentic.

Never said they were. That is a straw man you have constructed. We are not comparing an enlightened being from one tradition with another from another traditon we are comparing the Karmapa with a bunch of rabbit-in-a-hat magicians.

If you strip away the religious belief systems the performances of David Blaine would easily outshine the miraculous feats of Karmapa. And this is on the level of plain reason, and the relative truth.
What is it that makes you believe ?

You on drugs or something? You comparing an optical sleight of hand (eg sawing a woman in half) with siddhis?

Is anybody else out there reading this? We are in dire need of an objective opinion in this thread!

PS If you bothered checking out the post I referred you to you would see that it is by you and that you are arguing exactly the same point I am making. This leads me to believe that in this thread you are arguing just for the sake of arguing with me. In which case I have to withdraw from the discussion while I still maintain a semblance of sanity.

[LastLegend]

That is the kind of issue I wanted to address: The starting point is that the world is just mind. What is it that makes the miracles of say Karmapa different from those of say David Blaine ? Is it not that you are conditioned to behave differently in the social situation around Karmapa, as an example? I don't think there is any other substantial difference between the two. I didn't say it is a parlour trick. If you are a honest man you can go the Jehovas Witnesses and ask what they think of the rainbow body ? If you really think it is a universal perception, and please do it!

In teaching you are right. All dharmas come from the mind.

In practice, Greg is right. Tofu is definitely not emptiness, and emptiness is definitely not Tofu. Form is definitely not emptiness, emptiness is definitely not form. This is what we see.

But because of that teaching, we are able to achieve enlightenment because practicing the path will lead to enlightenment.

[Aemilius]

I am very serious, the topic is difficult to approach, I do have some practical knowledge about what seems like magical tricks and what is truly illusionary. You can see the films that there are by the persons that have been mentioned, and make your own judgements, but what if they are not just tricks ? What if they are real siddhis ?
"Magical tricks" is just a comfortable label, and "real siddhi" is an other label. How can you be so sure that they are (always or fundamentally) different ?? You have no ground for that.
You could also attain the four dhyanas yourself, and study practically how the various supernormal things are done, I heartily recommend that!
This topic has been touched lightly in the thread about Satya Sai Baba. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=3993

[gregkavarnos]

I am very serious, the topic is difficult to approach, I do have some practical knowledge about what seems like magical tricks and what is truly illusionary. You can see the films that there are by the persons that have been mentioned, and make your own judgements, but what if they are not just tricks ? What if they are real siddhis ?
"Magical tricks" is just a comfortable label, and "real siddhi" is an other label. How can you be so sure that they are (always or fundamentally) different ?? You have no ground for that.
You could also attain the four dhyanas yourself, and study practically how the various supernormal things are done, I heartily recommend that!
This topic has been touched lightly in the thread about Satya Sai Baba. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=3993

It's difficult to appoach coz of the social effects on the researcher from pissing themselves from laughing whilst in public!

What did your lama say to you when you approached them with the idea that david copperfield is a mahasiddha? Did they bitch-slap you? Mine would!

"Magical tricks" is a fitting label for your magician friends, "real siddhi" is a label that is to be applied to those with supernormal powers gained through meditative absorption. Hence david copperfield does magical tricks and milarepa displayed real siddhi.

Next you are going to tell me that lada gaga writes vajra songs born of realisation and that this explains her commercial success.