"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:09 pm

Last edited by Cafael Dust on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:17 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:30 pm


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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:56 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

alan
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:47 pm

It seems this thread has run down to it's logical conclusion, which is that there are two distinct ways of viewing the subject, and neither side can be convinced, because they begin from different premises. The premise of Tilt, who I think has said every thing that needs to be said on the matter from the Therevada perspective, is that the Buddha was real, He was enlightened, and we should follow those teachings. Bravo, Tilt! It's case closed, at least for me.
But there is another way of looking at this, I like to call it the Spiritual Smorgasbord Syndrome. Just pick whatever you like from any tradition and call it real. No bother if you have to stretch the Dhamma to fit it into the mold that has been cast--how do we know if those are really his words anyway? And besides, goes this reasoning, many others have become enlightened along the way, there are many paths up the mountain, its all just culturally relative, blah blah blah.
Anyone locked into the Many Ways Up the Mountain theory has the burden of proof on them. I'd also like to draw your attention to the fact that by constructing your thought-world this way, you are running the risk of re-affirming to yourself what you already are predisposed to like. Blind spots are guaranteed.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:02 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

alan
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:22 pm

Not sure what you mean, Manapa!
(Thanks for your generous offer to teach me how to use the quote buttons. I'll PM you as soon as I figure out how to do it...)

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:27 pm

The odd thing is that I consider myself a Buddhist fundamentalist. In terms of not-self and emptiness, I'm unshakeable. Except that they're empty too...

If these things are true, there must indeed be many ways up the mountain, because all ways are empty.
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Jechbi
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Shine on

Postby Jechbi » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:36 pm


alan
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Caeful--I was always a fan of the concept of emptiness. From the standpoint of philosophy it is fascinating. But I can't find any relevance to it in daily life, and have come to the conclusion it just gets in the way of understanding the Dhamma, especially when it is used as an end-all.
For instance, "we are empty, it is empty, your statement is empty",etc. It goes nowhere. I'm afraid it also leads nowhere; and since we all want to get somewhere, I'm going to suggest it should not be used outside the framework in which it was intended.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:57 pm

Jechbi--many more ways for the mind to proliferate outside Therevada! Spiritual Smorgasbord Syndrome is a problem primarily in those who are inclined to find their own way by choosing only what appeals to them.

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:01 pm

Yes it does go nowhere. That's the whole point. Tilt accused me of anti-intellectualism; no, I have the greatest respect for the intellect. In worldly things it's very useful.

It goes nowhere though, has done for thousands of years. That's where Buddhism comes in.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:06 pm

Please excuse me for misspelling your name.
Responding to your post: what is it that goes nowhere? I don't get what you are trying to say.

alan
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:34 pm

Ok Manapa I think I know what you said now. Sometimes it is hard to follow your words.

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:51 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Cittasanto
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:06 pm

What are you on about cafael? I didn't respond to you.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:08 pm

Sorry Manapa, I meant Alan. :rolleye:

Alan, I'm amazed that you attack me (quite nastily, to be fair) about my lack of orthodoxy while at the same time discounting teachings on emptiness, the most fundamental concept in Buddhism. How do you reconcile those two approaches?
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:27 pm


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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:53 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:00 pm

Tilt:

There is no such thing as Buddhism, there are just sounds that are perceived as sounding like 'Buddhism' and 'Buddha', people sitting cross legged on the floor and so on, even these can be broken down and shown to be empty, even concepts like 'sound', so how can something that is intrinsically empty of self nature, of essence, make claims of being the only path to enlightenment? How can Buddhists say on one hand 'there is no path' and on the other 'this is the only path'. It's ridiculous.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.


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