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Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso - Page 17 - Dhamma Wheel

Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
suwat
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suwat » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:36 pm

What ever intension you have apply but now the vinaya rules are improperly disputed. Human right and clergy rules is different story.Ordination will be merely a robe uniform or ritual if you're heart is not ordained.
Heart ordination better than critcized ordination.
With Metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:46 pm


notself
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby notself » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:08 am

Here is a slightly different take on things.

http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spi ... ticle10103
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:53 am

Hi Notself
Thanks for that article, it raises some points which have been brought up previously in this thread - not to far back - as well as some very interesting information.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:50 am

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... opic=12062

Report from Sanitsuda ...

Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn presided at the press conference today to urge the Office of National Buddhism and the Council of Elders to issue rules and regulations to empower the Thai Sangha to punish monks overseas who violate the Sangha's mandates.

Phra Kru Opas spoke on behalf of the Wat Pah Pong executive board which made this decision last week.... See More

Rough summary of press releases:

The Perth ordination is against the Vinaya-Dharma of Thai Theravada Buddhism as well as violating the Wat Pah Pong's prohibition against female ordination. Aj Brahm was summoned to admit his mistake which refused to do, resulting in the excommunication. This decision was later approved by Somdet Phra Puttajarn who said Aj Brahm's preceptorship was therefore automatically revoked.

Apart from ordaining women, Aj Brahm was also accused of temple mismanagement. The Bodhinyana Temple came into being through the faith and donations of Thai Buddhists in Perth. After the first abbot left monkhood, Aj Brahm was appointed as abbot and he later changed the temple bylaws and change the temple committee members for "his own interest" despite disagreement from the Bodhinyana Sangha.

Given that the Bhikkhuni ordination and temple ownership problems have greatly troubled the Thai Buddhists in Australia, a committee should be set up to investigate land ownership and temple mismanagement at Bodhinyana in order to return the land and temple to the Thai Buddhists and to ensure that the temple management is in line with Dhamma Vinaya.

To prevent future problems, rules and regulations should be issued so the Thai Sangha can punish the monks overseas who violate th laws and the clergy's mandates.

On temple ownership overseas, this poses a problem of control because temples are owned by associations not the Thai Sangha like temples in Thailand. Should the abbots err, they still can stay if the temple committee support them. Or, when the abbots are in the right, they cannot stay if they don't have support of the committee. The management of temples in Thailand, however, is under Thai Sangha's administrative structure. When problems occur like in the case of Bodhinyana, it is then difficult to move due to lack of uniform rules which effectively govern temples in Thailand. To prevent similar problems, there should be a state agency to enforce the Thai Sangha law and to cover temples overseas.

I asked whether WPP sent emails to the Thai embasy and Sinporean organisers of Aj Brahm's talks, the answer is no, WPP did not do that.

Asked if this control effort have been approved by the Western clergy since it would affect the Western monks' relative autonomy which is useful to their dharma work, the answer that it is the decision of the WPP board consisting of 12 senior monks. That it was approved by LP Liam. But the answer was not clear if the Western Sangha was fully consulted or not.

Phra Kru Sudhamprachote said many Thai Buddhists in Perth are unhappy with Aj Brahm and are trying to find way to get him out the temple. But this is up to the people, WPP cannot do anything to support this action.

I asked if WPP has an alternative to Bhikkhuni. Aj Kevali is in favour of the Siladhara order. But Phra Kru Opas outrightly dismissed it, saying it it would be difficult for the order to be accepted in Thailand. He described Bhikkhuni ordination as against the Dhamma Vinaya. That the Buddha advised monks to stay away from women, because women and monks are like fire and fuel.

I asked what is the real issue concerning Aj Brahm, Bhikkhuni ordination or Aj Brahm's secrecy and failure to consult the WPP clergy. Phra Kru Opas said the main issue is Bhikkhuni ordination. That there is no way that Thai Theravada Buddhism to have Bhikkhuni. And as far WPP concerns, Aj Brahm is no longer a Thai Theravada monk, but a Mahayana monk.

My hunch : This might be part of the existing problems of internal politics between Thai and Western monks in the WPP order. Luang Por Chah wanted the Western clergy to oversee the Western monks. Consequently, Thai monks have no say on temples overseas. But the Perth ordination shows Aj Sumedho's failure to keep the monks under his supervision in line so the Thai monks have the reason to step in to control the Western monks and the temple properties abroad.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:19 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:06 am

where is the original?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:07 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:03 am

I for one am glad the WPP is clearly showing its attitude to Western Buddhism

To me it shows that the issue is not about the Bhikkhini ordination but about control

In the words of Lord Acton "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

I now wait to see how the members of WAM respond

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Vardali
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:26 am


suanck
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:43 am


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:31 am

Where is the original?

And where is the official statement released by the ForestSangha?
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:10 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:19 am

Hi Chris

As a journalist Sanitsuda Ekachai, has herself what they'd call a 'breaking story'.
Given the length of time ForestSangha website took to respond to the initial event that started this whole thing, I wouldn't expect an official response any time soon. Dhammalight website will probably have something fairly soon though, as it's a little closer to the source of this controversy.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:25 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:03 am

I've searched for the original but cannot find anything on Santisuda's blog.

It must be fake. No monk could hold such views?! Especially a non-detached forest monk. Who is the monk Opaswuthikorn? Anyone know?

The whole question of the ownership of monastic property is an interesting one too.
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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:28 am

Well, Sanitsuda Ekachai's twitter speaks a very similar tone to the original story.

http://twitter.com/Sanitsuda

All the same it is pretty strange that for a 'press conference' there isn't much substantiated evidence here. Time will tell I guess...
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:11 am

Hi All,
Blackbird - he hasn't been prevented from being a preceptor in Theravada as far as I am aware, he has been stopped from being a preceptor in the Thai Sangha however.

Chris - no Chao Khun Raja Sumedhajahn.

For a rough summary of the press release it is using wordings which hasn't been found in press releases, surely this would of been a cut and paste job instead of a writing from memory?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:32 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -


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