My dramatic attention whore exit...

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:05 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
This will not suffice.


I was really speaking to the OP, I never expected you to agree that you are being puritanical and your arguments are simply rhetoric. I wonder how you developed such certainty about a topic which you clearly know nothing about. . . I guess it's human nature. Samasara.


This is a chance for you to educate me. Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Vajrayana at all. But the practice of sex in the path is clearly not Buddha's teaching. You are welcome to argue against this point. I know that there are Vajrayana teachers out there who teach about visualization of a consort or dakini instead of the actual sex practice. This is accord with Buddha's teachings. Right now I am digging information about Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden.


You can believe what you want if it helps you sleep better at night. Basically all lineage masters practiced karmamudra. Guru Rinpoche, Mandarava, Yeshe Tsogyal, etc., Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Gompopa, Phagmo Drupa, etc., It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra. Karmamudra is part and parcel of buddhist tantra. But that does't mean you have to practice it. There is karmamudra, samayamudra, dharmamudra and mahamudra. One can rest in the nature of the vajra, as in mahamudra, or join feeling to mahamudra as in tummo, or visualize consort as in deity yoga, or for those practitioner who require a basic concrete viceral introduction to the practice, then karmamudra. Actually, karmamudra is taught as a low level practitioner's tool.The highest capacity practitioners are introduced directly to mahamudra, and so on, in descending order. But, also even for high level practitioners, if they have difficulty bringing all five vayus into the central channel, then karmamudra will be employed. As in the case of Milarepa, this event happens to someone on the doorstep to buddhahood. Such a person is extremely advanced practitioner. And in such a case, dakinis and celestial beings can serve as the consort.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby LastLegend » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:58 pm

adinatha wrote:You can believe what you want if it helps you sleep better at night. Basically all lineage masters practiced karmamudra. Guru Rinpoche, Mandarava, Yeshe Tsogyal, etc., Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Gompopa, Phagmo Drupa, etc., It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra. Karmamudra is part and parcel of buddhist tantra. But that does't mean you have to practice it. There is karmamudra, samayamudra, dharmamudra and mahamudra. One can rest in the nature of the vajra, as in mahamudra, or join feeling to mahamudra as in tummo, or visualize consort as in deity yoga, or for those practitioner who require a basic concrete viceral introduction to the practice, then karmamudra. Actually, karmamudra is taught as a low level practitioner's tool.The highest capacity practitioners are introduced directly to mahamudra, and so on, in descending order. But, also even for high level practitioners, if they have difficulty bringing all five vayus into the central channel, then karmamudra will be employed. As in the case of Milarepa, this event happens to someone on the doorstep to buddhahood. Such a person is extremely advanced practitioner. And in such a case, dakinis and celestial beings can serve as the consort.


Thanks for the post. After reading the article of Ocean of indivisble method and wisdom by Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden, I have come to realize that the union is actually symbolic and has nothing to do with sex (as attachment of sensual pleasure) but rather a necessary process for these advanced practitioners (who have detached from attachments) to realize enlightenment...So I am not entirely not correct.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:12 pm

adinatha wrote:If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important.


It can be.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important.


It can be.


Cool. I won't put my tool in cold storage.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:19 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important.


It can be.


Cool. I won't put my tool in cold storage.


Longchenpa has extensive karmamudra instructions that go with the Lama Yang tig.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Cool. I won't put my tool in cold storage.


Longchenpa has extensive karmamudra instructions that go with the Lama Yang tig.


Does it not follow the same general scheme as Kalachakra? It is tantra level, not dzogchen, no? Dzogchen's use of sensation to introduce dzogchen is not karmamudra.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Tilopa » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:48 am

adinatha wrote: It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra.


Sangarakshita
Atisha
Dromtonpa
Lama Tsong Khapa
14 Dalai Lamas
17 Karmapas
12 Situ Rinpoches...to name but a few.

There's also the thousands of scholars, yogis, lamas and tulkus who practiced as celibate monks and nuns.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Tilopa » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:02 am

LastLegend wrote: Thanks for the post. After reading the article of Ocean of indivisble method and wisdom by Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden, I have come to realize that the union is actually symbolic and has nothing to do with sex (as attachment of sensual pleasure) but rather a necessary process for these advanced practitioners (who have detached from attachments) to realize enlightenment....


So called sexual yoga is not ordinary sex at all but a transformation of sexual energy into extremely powerful states of subtelty and bliss, something which can only be achieved by very advanced practitioners through manipulation and control of the channels, winds and drops. Those who claim sex is an integral part of Vajrayana practice usually miss this important point - sometimes through genuine ignorance but often because they want to justify an attachment to mundane pleasure.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:07 am

Tilopa wrote:
adinatha wrote: It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra.


Sangarakshita
Atisha
Dromtonpa
Lama Tsong Khapa
14 Dalai Lamas
17 Karmapas
12 Situ Rinpoches...to name but a few.

There's also the thousands of scholars, yogis, lamas and tulkus who practiced as celibate monks and nuns.


The first karmapa practiced karmamudra. There are teachings of Gompopa about karmamudra to him. Apart from Sangarakshita and Atisha, the people you mentioned derive their lineage teachings from Tilopa, Naropa and Marpa, lineage forefathers who did practice karmamudra.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:39 am

Tilopa wrote:
adinatha wrote: It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra.


Sangarakshita
Atisha
Dromtonpa
Lama Tsong Khapa
14 Dalai Lamas
17 Karmapas
12 Situ Rinpoches...to name but a few.

There's also the thousands of scholars, yogis, lamas and tulkus who practiced as celibate monks and nuns.


You forgot the 6th Dalai Lama was not celibate, but had many
lovers. Also, you seem to be confused about the Karmapas as well:
Khandro Rinpoche is a Tulku of Khandro Urgyen Tsomo, a realized female teacher
but also famously the consort of the 15th Karmapa. ..
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:46 am

Also the Great 5th Dalai Lama may not have taken a consort
himself, but he advised his beloved disciple to take one:

When his activities were thriving, at the age of 33, Rigzin Terdag Lingpa became seriously ill. Based on a prediction and instruction of The Great Fifth Dalai Lama, Rigzin Terdag Lingpa accepted a spiritual consort, who was an emanation of Kshetrapali. It was due to her blessings and presence that Terdag Lingpa not only regained his health and prolonged his life, but his realization also became greatly enhanced and deepened. Due to the presence of certain obstacles, this consort did not bear a child, but later Terdag Lingpa successively married two consorts (sangyum) who gave birth to three sons and two daughters, all of whom became exceptional practitioners.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Tilopa » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:05 am

adinatha wrote:The first karmapa practiced karmamudra. There are teachings of Gompopa about karmamudra to him. Apart from Sangarakshita and Atisha, the people you mentioned derive their lineage teachings from Tilopa, Naropa and Marpa, lineage forefathers who did practice karmamudra.


Adamantine wrote:You forgot the 6th Dalai Lama was not celibate, but had many
lovers. Also, you seem to be confused about the Karmapas as well:
Khandro Rinpoche is a Tulku of Khandro Urgyen Tsomo, a realized female teacher
but also famously the consort of the 15th Karmapa. ..


Adamantine wrote:Also the Great 5th Dalai Lama may not have taken a consort
himself, but he advised his beloved disciple to take one:


I'm not disputing the validity of consort practice for those who are qualified. I just happen to think most people who claim sex is a traditional/important/necessary/legitimate part of the Vajrayana path are attempting to justify an attachment to ordinary pleasure. But my main point is that celibate teachers have made and continue to make an essential contribution to the transmission, preservation and propagation of Dharma in India,Tibet and now the West.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:21 am

Tilopa wrote:
adinatha wrote:The first karmapa practiced karmamudra. There are teachings of Gompopa about karmamudra to him. Apart from Sangarakshita and Atisha, the people you mentioned derive their lineage teachings from Tilopa, Naropa and Marpa, lineage forefathers who did practice karmamudra.


Adamantine wrote:You forgot the 6th Dalai Lama was not celibate, but had many
lovers. Also, you seem to be confused about the Karmapas as well:
Khandro Rinpoche is a Tulku of Khandro Urgyen Tsomo, a realized female teacher
but also famously the consort of the 15th Karmapa. ..


Adamantine wrote:Also the Great 5th Dalai Lama may not have taken a consort
himself, but he advised his beloved disciple to take one:


I'm not disputing the validity of consort practice for those who are qualified. I just happen to think most people who claim sex is a traditional/important/necessary/legitimate part of the Vajrayana path are attempting to justify an attachment to ordinary pleasure. But my main point is that celibate teachers have made and continue to make an essential contribution to the transmission, preservation and propagation of Dharma in India,Tibet and now the West.


In an attempt to cater to polite society, Vajrayana people try to sweep the sexual aspects under the rug saying it's just symbolic, etc., and fear somehow sex is going to destroy Vajrayana like it has infected the Catholic Church. This is a vestige of an outdated sexual morality. Vajrayana has a very healthy attitude toward sex. Just as sex can be an obstacle so can attachments to opinions and artificial moralism. And so can the general attitude of favoring the celebates as spiritual authority. Two of my best friends are monastics. I find the whole cultural baggage that goes along with that life to be a burden. Monastics have worked very hard to ensure their positions as the bosses of the teachings. When it comes to some of the more esoteric teachings, they have a disadvantage. Industrious lay yogis need to step up and get into retreats. And we need to support each others efforts, because much of what we would want to practice is not allowed under the supervision of a monk in a monastery.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:59 am

adinatha wrote:
In an attempt to cater to polite society, Vajrayana people try to sweep the sexual aspects under the rug saying it's just symbolic, etc., and fear somehow sex is going to destroy Vajrayana like it has infected the Catholic Church. This is a vestige of an outdated sexual morality. Vajrayana has a very healthy attitude toward sex. Just as sex can be an obstacle so can attachments to opinions and artificial moralism. And so can the general attitude of favoring the celebates as spiritual authority. Two of my best friends are monastics. I find the whole cultural baggage that goes along with that life to be a burden. Monastics have worked very hard to ensure their positions as the bosses of the teachings. When it comes to some of the more esoteric teachings, they have a disadvantage. Industrious lay yogis need to step up and get into retreats. And we need to support each others efforts, because much of what we would want to practice is not allowed under the supervision of a monk in a monastery.


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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:31 am

Tilopa wrote:
adinatha wrote: It's hard to find anyone responsible for the existence of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet who did not practice karmamudra.


Sangarakshita
Atisha
Dromtonpa
Lama Tsong Khapa
14 Dalai Lamas
17 Karmapas
12 Situ Rinpoches...to name but a few.

There's also the thousands of scholars, yogis, lamas and tulkus who practiced as celibate monks and nuns.


The 6th Dalai Lama, the 15th Karmapa and the 10th or so Tai Situpa almost certainly did practice karmamudra in some form. This is because these specific incarnations weren't monks and did have sexual relations and as high bodhisattvas their sexual activity was for sure not ordinary sexual activity.

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby LastLegend » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:47 am

I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to. In theory it might be easy to say, one can be practicing it but not attached to it. But it's not that easy.

Don't lead yourself and others on the wrong path. Know your own path, and point others to the right path.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:19 pm

LastLegend wrote:I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to.


Ordinary people are attached to sex. However this attachment can also be used as a method to enlightenment. HOWEVER this is only for a small minority of people. Can the average person off the street fly a Stealth Bomber or the Space Shuttle? It's like that.

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:20 pm

For those who aren't monks and don't practice karmamudra, sex is still not a bad thing, as long as their conduct is healthy. Unless one is a monk, one is not required to be celibate. Buddhists don't see sex as some sort of sinful activity. There's nothing wrong with having sex. It can be an attachment like any other. There are much worse attachments that make us hurt others, while sex can be an attachment that can give pleasure to oneself and others.
All that harping on this theme is more likely to derive from alien influences that have nothing to do with Buddhism.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Jikan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:18 pm

I think you'll find Buddhists who view sex as a sinful activity. And you won't have to look hard, because some of them participate on this board.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:19 pm

adinatha wrote: Dzogchen's use of sensation to introduce dzogchen is not karmamudra.



Yes, actually it is.

N
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