Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

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Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby caveman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:46 pm

Just viewed the documentary "Tulku" by Gesar Mukpo.

Only Gesar and his brother Ashoska stated which TULKU of their previous life they were.

The other three men in the movie were never identified by their previous incarnation nor lineage.

Could I get some help from my dharma brothers and sisters, please.
:shrug:
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:35 pm

caveman wrote:Just viewed the documentary "Tulku" by Gesar Mukpo.

Only Gesar and his brother Ashoska stated which TULKU of their previous life they were.

The other three men in the movie were never identified by their previous incarnation nor lineage.

Could I get some help from my dharma brothers and sisters, please.
:shrug:


Dzongsar Khyentse is the tulku of Dzongsar Khyentse Choki Lodro. Wyatt Arnold's previous incarnation was mentioned to my knowledge - well actually I think it was but I don't remember offhand. The tulku who was diving, has a degree in biology and voiced the line about disappearing into Rumtek - his former incarnation was mentioned as a monk and in other sources the monk is identified.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:23 am

There's a list of each Tulku's name in the end credits. With those
you could do an easy google search-- I'll
do it once I have a moment but it may be easier
to do yourself...
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby caveman » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:40 pm

I have done the google seach with no results.

Does anyone known the tulku identity and lineage of the three western tulkus that were NOT LISTED.
:focus:
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:09 pm

If Radio Free Shambhala is correct the Ashoka's previous incarnation was a monk named Khamyon Rinpoche. Khamyon is almost certainly some kind of Tibetan contraction so perhaps this monk came from Kham and resided at a monastery with yon in it or it might be a region within Kham or a Kham tribal name, etc.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Jikan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:17 pm

Gesar Mukpo is an interesting dude. For instance:

Mukpo, who is a tulku himself, has little faith in the tulku system and wouldn't necessarily describe himself as Buddhist. "There's definitely no place for the tulku system in the Western world because people don't want to be told to follow people," he explains.

"I don't think Buddhists should call themselves Buddhists when they're in the western world," he continues. "If the world is going to become a better place, people need to be able to mix all our ideas together and take what comes out of that."


http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/two-worl ... id=1290706

Not sure how that comes through in the film, because I haven't seen it yet.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby caveman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:07 am

It's strange that in the National Film Board of Canada film "Words of my perfect teacher" Gesar stated that his father WANTED to send him to a monastery but his mother said ..."No way are you sending my son to a monastery".

Yet in his National Film Board of Canada documentary film "Tulku" he keeps saying that his father did not want him to go to a monastery.

Things that make you go HMMMM!!! :juggling:
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby justsit » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:26 am

Another intriguing comment, by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, comes at 1:57 in the trailer.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby heart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:13 am

justsit wrote:Another intriguing comment, by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, comes at 1:57 in the trailer.


Gesar is not teaching, that is what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is waiting for, or not. :smile:

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby username » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:54 am

justsit wrote:Another intriguing comment, by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, comes at 1:57 in the trailer.


He's got a purpose in this life but even when a pandita Kagyu Kongtrul crosses over and gets too close to us Nyingmas then he becomes a procrastinating layabout bum too. He'll be fine but that offshoot was a little crazy anyway, not as much as his mahasiddha student though, later his dad. Dzongsar Khyentse himself has gone a little more crazy too but you have to admire how he's kept his elegance. This time both are lazy students of whatever they pick up and drop, whatever!
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Ashocka » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:31 pm

For my 2 cents worth; I think this is a whole testament to whether one connects with the living thread of practice ripening through tantra or not. I have even heard such testament from other tulkus who said they didn't really wake up until they woke up to what the nature of the practice was all about and then they were ripened by the development of that practice. It's sad, these tulkus in the movie don't have the adamantine confidence because they haven't connected with their practice properly.

I was in a discussion with a long time student/practitioner and Changling Rinpoche and that student was saying how he had meet up with Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche at Shechen when he was at the beginning of his tutelage under HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and he thought he didn't really have it together as a practitioner. And Changling Rinpoche said; "Yes, but what happened was at that time he really began to flourish in his study and practice and their was a very rapid transformation and awakening'. I felt he was basically saying that anyone can transform themselves if they connect with the path of the inner tantras. It is a message I have heard many times from many lamas, and to me, these tulkus haven't really clicked with that, they are still lost in their namtok (but who am I to comment on this???)

To me, that is what DKR is saying to Gesar. (he's still waiting for this to happen to him)

It doesn't matter if you are a tulku or not, there is no escaping going through the process of formal practice through the inner tantras to wake up and transform samsaric perception.

Maybe that is their nirmankaya display to us, that even if you are a tulku, it still doesn't aid you or expediate your journey if you still can't connect with the inner thread of the practice lineage.

It can be amazing how protected one can be by these lineages if you are just a simple shit kicking no frills idiot practitioner, free from such burdens of outer spiritual recognition (unless it is accompanied by real inner realization).

(useless time wasting mutterings of mine not even worth 2 cents).
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby username » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:44 pm

Main thing is realizing the nature of mind and progressing the levels within that which is hidden. DKR is referring to his activities aspect. I don't know Gesar but he seems to be doing just fine.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby caveman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:47 pm

Well there are some mistakes in this movie.

Gesar says that his friend in Halifax, Dylan Henderson was the first western caucasian TULKU.

WRONG

Lets try George Leslie Dawson (1931 - 2003) from Toronto Canada who was recognized by the 16th Karmapa in the late 1960's as the incarnation of Mipham Rinpoche. He was given the title of the Venerable Namgyal Rinpoche.

If you check the credits under "Tulkus by appearance" you may notice that Rabjam Rinpoche was not included on both the credits and on the DVD container.

Rabjam Rinpoche is only the head of the monastery that old Gesar is seated and recognized as a Tulku.

There was also only a total of about 12 seconds about the history about the previous Shechen Kongtrul Rinpoche in the entire documentary.

WHY?

But back to my original question about the 3 western tulkus that were not identified by their Tulku title or lineage.

Anyone know who they are?
:thinking: :shrug:
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:28 am

why don't you just PM Gesar on his facebook page and ask? then let us know the answer!
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Ashocka » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:33 am

username wrote:Main thing is realizing the nature of mind and progressing the levels within that which is hidden. DKR is referring to his activities aspect. I don't know Gesar but he seems to be doing just fine.


If Gesar has completed his lama, yidam and dakini practices in those given retreats then DKR would be referring (my guess), to his activities. But if he hasn't done these then I feel this is just encouraging him to realize what he needs to do to reawaken his potential. It doesn't matter whether you are a tulku or not, if you haven't completed these retreats and received the signs of accomplishment you are not yet qualified to transmit the vajrayana to others. This is not something I am making up, it is in the vajrayana texts, and I am amazed how many practitioners do not understand these fundamentals.

DKR sent him to Shechen Tibet in 1991 to be enthroned at Shechen Tibet (maybe that would trigger the awakening?) http://mahasiddhi.blogspot.com/2005/10/fear-and-loathing-in-tibet-part-one.html

I don't know Gesar either, but a long time Dharma practitioner friend and student of CTR staid with him in an apartment in New York a long time ago. At first he just thought he was just an ordinary person, but he said after 5 days with him, for some unapparent reason he developed this quiet unspoken reverence towards him, that there were some hidden qualities there.

As for the OP, if you google a bit you could find out the answers to your question.

As for all these other western tulku's, I'm sorry, but I have heard so many stories from both sides (even from another tulku who was at Rumtek when George Leslie Dawson was called a Rinpoche by HH Karmapa). They can still fulfill some bodhisattva activities of that incarnation, true, but they still need to go through some training, and do the appropriate retreats and be enthroned by the lineage before they are truly a holder of that vajrayana lineage and can transmit that to others.

I'm not trying to offend or cause problems, but it is one of the key misunderstandings about these things that leads to so much confusion and lack of clarification.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby username » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:01 am

He's been practicing since a kid, he can accomplish a practice in retreat (probably has) and give transmissions for it and if a major yidam practice, others too. Not what you invent above. He doesn't have to finish: ngondros (probably 2), lama, yidam, khandro, trulkhor, rushens/semdzins, semde/mengagde's trekcho and thogal in that order and preferably a three year retreat . That is your teaching to him as a guru! Then his holier than thou enthronment which you glorify makes sense for you. I'd say he can do a major terma cycle (say Dudjom Tersar with part exemption of ngondro) and trekcho concurrently and various shorts and then another from that tersar till he's got the 3, taking his time and doing his activities too. He's probably doing something like that but he is entitled to keep his practice secret. A right you and I have but which you are denying him in a horrible attack in public!

If he was to give Rinchen Terzo by now, then he'd born in Asia. But maybe in 30 years he will anyway. Point is that is your idea, and very simplistic as IMO DKR also meant no one knows his purpose activity-wise, though that probably was to do with timing as I hinted not nature. But you claim to know! So email him though I'm sure by now he's reading. Also go to Tibet as his dad's tulku is around and very powerfully frightening again and tell him off why he didn't send little Gesar to an Asian shedra as you know his intended activity better than Trungpa or Dilgo or Dzongsar or Karmapa-16! Good luck.

As fer his lack of awakening in 1991, even the greatest masters are not sure of such things after detailed interviews but you are completely omniscient from afar! Finally, what did Dilgo Khyentse use to say to dried up bone heads who used to give negative reports of Trungpa's unorthodox novel activities in the west? Same answer with Gesar's activities in the west to you. Sometimes when very high masters are around and guiding a major tulku's practices then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't shout about in a public forum acting like his angry guru from afar but maybe mind your own business. Your inauspicious public negative projections of his practice are really your own problems.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Ashocka » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:11 am

username wrote:He's been practicing since a kid, he can accomplish a practice in retreat (probably has) and give transmissions for it and if a major yidam practice, others too. Not what you invent above. He doesn't have to finish: ngondros (probably 2), lama, yidam, khandro, trulkhor, rushens/semdzins, semde/mengagde's trekcho and thogal in that order and preferably a three year retreat . That is your teaching to him as a guru! Then his holier than thou enthronment which you glorify makes sense for you. I'd say he can do a major terma cycle (say Dudjom Tersar with part exemption of ngondro) and trekcho concurrently and various shorts and then another from that tersar till he's got the 3, taking his time and doing his activities too. He's probably doing something like that but he is entitled to keep his practice secret. A right you and I have but which you are denying him in a horrible attack in public!

If he was to give Rinchen Terzo by now, then he'd born in Asia. But maybe in 30 years he will anyway. Point is that is your idea, and very simplistic as IMO DKR also meant no one knows his purpose activity-wise, though that probably was to do with timing as I hinted not nature. But you claim to know! So email him though I'm sure by now he's reading. Also go to Tibet as his dad's tulku is around and very powerfully frightening again and tell him off why he didn't send little Gesar to an Asian shedra as you know his intended activity better than Trungpa or Dilgo or Dzongsar or Karmapa-16! Good luck.

As fer his lack of awakening in 1991, even the greatest masters are not sure of such things after detailed interviews but you are completely omniscient from afar! Finally, what did Dilgo Khyentse use to say to dried up bone heads who used to give negative reports of Trungpa's unorthodox novel activities in the west? Same answer with Gesar's activities in the west to you. Sometimes when very high masters are around and guiding a major tulku's practices then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't shout about in a public forum acting like his angry guru from afar but maybe mind your own business. Your inauspicious public negative projections of his practice are really your own problems.


That's great to hear he's done all that practice. But is that true he has done all these practice requirements or not. Please don't speculate on practice requirements. I do know he has done his ngondro.

I think if you read what I say carefully I wasn't insinuating anything like you implied I was. And it is true, I have no idea what DKR intention is/was? And I never said anything negative about CTR, nor have I in any other place.

My point is just this.... if you have done all that practice, if you are awake, then why manifest all this huge confusion about being a tulku or even a simple practitioner? Why do it? There is a message here true, about being recognized a tulku in the west, but you have to be very careful what you say in that I feel it is much more important to communicate how directly the vajrayana can be entered into by anyone. And the message here, to me is of people who are lost in their tulku identity. If they could just discard that and manifest as ordinary practitioners it would be a powerful statement. But even if they are realized, I have to question why they manifest the confusion they do. Maybe it does help? I don't know.

You know, if you do this on this scale, producing a movie, it becomes a huge public display of your own confusion. On some level I REALLY appreciate his honesty, it's fantastic. But it doesn't matter who these lamas are, the ones I have meet have an impecable trust in the lack of confusion that their rigpa brings. So I am asking why such a preoccupation with this issue? Isn't this what practice is supposed to resolve?

All these tulkus in this documentary seem very lost to me.... or is that just the display of their buddha activity. If it is, we really do live in weird times. I don't really know, but they are spending a hell of a lot of energy proper-gating their namtok in my limited view. Maybe others see it as awakened (and good on you). I don't think it is a cosmic joke because to me it is sad. I think it is a huge burden to be a recognized tulku.
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby username » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:38 am

You are wrong to say I said what he has practiced, I didn't. Secondly I clearly paralled CTR's critics with Gesar's, not linking you with CTR, again: please read carefully. As for your main point, I disagree and think his film was a very good activity in many ways, subject execution effect etc., as does his mentor Dsongsar Khyentse. Why not investigate see why a docu on a bunch of young mid/low-level tulkus reborn in the west creates such strong reactions and emotions in you? Nyingmas originally didn't have tulkus nor hierarchical establishment and organization on this scale anyway.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby kirtu » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:57 am

Ashocka wrote:All these tulkus in this documentary seem very lost to me....


I wouldn't write them off. The underlying issue that the movie raises is whether tulku recognition has relevance and value in the west and in Tibetan Buddhism in general in modern times.

The second issue is the conflict with modern society and it's powerful delusion generation and how that affects practitioners, esp. western practitioners.

Then there is the issue raised with the Tibetan Buddhist monasticism as an institution as highlighted powerfully by the Dutch-Nepali or Dutch-Tibetan tulku who reacted so strongly that he said he had left Buddhism altogether.

However as you note:
It doesn't matter if you are a tulku or not, there is no escaping going through the process of formal practice through the inner tantras to wake up and transform samsaric perception.


So I think there is a fourth issue as reflected in Wallace's interview: Tibetan Buddhism in hte West: Is it working? and this movie has something to add to that ongoing discussion.

Connected with these issues is the question of the adoption or continuance of outward Tibetan cultural forms as a seemingly integral part of the teachings and practice.

Once the tulku's in the movie really "connect with the path of the inner tantras" as you say then we will see some other transformation - although this may already have taken place with some of them. The seeming obsession with identity (really only one of the young men raised this issue as a real point) is part of the general western halucination and can take a while to work through. Society with it's imposed mass halucination is very powerful.

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Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:22 pm

Just get rid of the whole damn tulku thing once and for all. It is a completely corrupt system based on money and power.

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