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D.O. question - Dhamma Wheel

D.O. question

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
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adosa
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D.O. question

Postby adosa » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:10 am

Hello all,

In the twelve links of Dependent Origination it states "from fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness." I've also seen the term "volitional formations" used. What exactly are fabrications or volitional formations? Are they the residue or effects of past thoughts and actions? Are these the things that carry over from one life to the next forming consciousness in the next? I ask because I'm having a hard time picturing any of this happening without some sort of consciousness already existing and yet as stated above "fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness" seems to point at some stage in the links of D.O. consciousness do not exist.


thanks,

adosa :smile:
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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Tex
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Re: D.O. question

Postby Tex » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:24 am

Ven Nyanatiloka's explanation of paticcasamuppada in his famous dictionary helped clarify this exact same question for me, see here:

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/bu ... dic3_p.htm
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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retrofuturist
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Re: D.O. question

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:28 am

Greetings Adosa,

These formations are sankhara. Look up this term if you're not familiar with it.

As for consciousness, the commentarial tradition takes this to be some kind of rebirth-linking consciousness. In the suttas however, consciousness is typically classified as consciousness associated with the six senses (e.g. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, mind-consciousness...).

You seem to be adopting the three-life interpretation, so I'll leave you to it. If you wish to explore a non-time-delineated understanding of dependent origination that isn't pegged over three lifetimes, let me know. (I don't want to explain it otherwise, lest I add to your confusion)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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adeh
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Re: D.O. question

Postby adeh » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:32 am

Hi Retro, I'm interested in exploring a non-time delineated understanding of dependent origination, do you have any links? Mark.

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retrofuturist
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Re: D.O. question

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:40 am

Greetings Adeh,

There's a map and some previous discussion @ viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21

Beyond that, there's...

Dependent Origination: The Buddhist Law of Conditionality by Ven. Prayudh Payutto (esp. Chapter 5)
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm

Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination by by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu
(unfortunately not the full version... but the physical version exists as a free Dhamma book, and in a commercial version)
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... uppada.htm

Bhikkhu Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm

Dependent Origination by Christina Feldman
http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/1999a/christina.htm

That will do for now - let me know if you're after more.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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adeh
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Re: D.O. question

Postby adeh » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:06 am

Thanks for the links.

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adosa
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Re: D.O. question

Postby adosa » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:12 am

Thanks Gentlemen,

Is it correct to say that sankhara is then "kammic energy", "kamma formations", or "habit energy"? Is it right to sum up this step in D. O. as follows..... conventionally speaking of course:


I'm ignorant due to my current inability to see things as they really. So I grasp and cling to things in which I find pleasure or am averse to those things which I find unpleasant, etc. In doing so I create "kamma formations" or sankhara. Basically preferences which form my life and perceptions of the world.

At the time of death (or on a continual basis during this lifetime I would assume) these sankharas form or color the basis for the next moment of consciousness. Someone else or another species for example would have different perceptions, preferences, and therefore "kamma formations" or sankharas and as such they would perceive the next sense input differently, grasp it differently, and so their next moment of consciousness would be somewhat different than mine. So then on a continuum these things create continual divergence (almost like a version of chaos theory) and propel us into entirely different beings with entirely different perceptions of reality.



A lot of mine making there but I don't know how else to put together my understanding at this time.

Once again thanks for the help,

adosa :smile:
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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retrofuturist
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Re: D.O. question

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:19 am

Greetings Adosa,

I've also heard of sankhara being referred to as preparations, which I think covers an element of it quite well.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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catmoon
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Re: D.O. question

Postby catmoon » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:36 am

Adosab - if you manage to sort out the original question please let me know. A lot of the references are just incomprehensible to me and I'm not getting very far with them.

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acinteyyo
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Re: D.O. question

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:04 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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tiltbillings
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Re: D.O. question

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:17 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: D.O. question

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:31 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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tiltbillings
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Re: D.O. question

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:39 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: D.O. question

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:14 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

dhamma follower
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Re: D.O. question

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:28 pm

[quote="
when there is avijjā there is not only the presence of the phenomenon there is also the presence of the (illusory) subject for whom the phenomenon is present (pañc'upādānakkhandhā), because of upādāna. when there is no avijjā there is only the phenomenon present (pañcakkhandhā).

best wishes, acinteyyo[/quote]

Sadhu !!!

And this (illusory) splitting between subject/phenomenon is sankhara (of D.O)

D.F.

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catmoon
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Re: D.O. question

Postby catmoon » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:45 am

To get an idea what Pali-laden posts look like to non-speakers of ancient languages, print out a copy and then, with a large black felt pen, blot out every foreign word. Notice that in the process, the key concepts in an argument are often covered up.

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acinteyyo
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Re: D.O. question

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:11 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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ground
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Re: D.O. question

Postby ground » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:45 am

After all interpretation of DO as meaning this or that is a manifestation of sankhàra, right?

Kind regards

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ground
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Re: D.O. question

Postby ground » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:28 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: D.O. question

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:56 pm

Hi TMingyur,

sorry but I don't understand your question?
Do you mean, this or that interpretation of DO is a manifestation of sankhara?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.


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