Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

[Adamantine]

As for the current discussion I don't think anyone said anything too much yet, it seems pretty general to me, with no details about ones personal experience being conveyed.

It's getting a little too close for comfort

[adinatha]

You know I was wondering if anyone knows what's the origin of the Semzin of the Syllable Phat?

[username]

DC is locally elected in each case by members. You can join and change things and have your say if people don't vote for your proposals. Unlike most other places. So this is all irrelevant. It has transparent accounts. ChNNR regularly donates personally to transmission costs which is a lot specially since video, because there is great effect in that not that he needs the merit.

People should not eat free food from those who are not sure of and then come and talk of genuine tertons. As for the causal personal vibration things within time, that is not rigpa of dharmakaya. Those are personal feelings and experiences, some right some wrong some mixed.As a wise poster quoted his wife, sometimes the webcast transmissions are more effective in the case of a person than being in presence of ChNNR himself as circumstances and dpendent origination is always changing. People are obsessed with rituals and personal vibes from this or that causal effect and take the husk to be the fruit. How foolish. It is like going to an island full of jewels and coming back with coconut shells full of sh!t. As for the knowledge of the ultimate, you can get it on your own, repeat: yourself, after DI from a lineage master. What you get and what levels and what development is undertaken has nothing to do with how many feet you are from the master or if you are the only one etc. These are errors by those who do not know and waste their precious life playing with paraphernalia and words and mislead others.

Dechen Norbu said it all:

Pero said it all.

[Pero]

You know I was wondering if anyone knows what's the origin of the Semzin of the Syllable Phat?

It's present in the tantra Dra Thalgyur, don't know about earlier.

[Dechen Norbu]

What I'm asking is if magnus thinks there's a difference in the quality of the introduction due to proximity. He speaks about quantity (time period resting in recognition) and this is not difficult to conceive. I am wondering if he thinks physical proximity changes the quality of the introduction somehow. Perhaps I'm just being led by the word "depth", which I always assumed to mean more profound.

There is no difference in quality, just time. I think you also might understand that there are some unique opportunities opening up at such a moment.

/magnus

Agree. I was just making sure I understood you correctly.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Transmission occur when you recognize, no matter where you are. But, if you ever received transmission alone with your teacher there is for sure a great difference in depth.

/magnus

What is "depth"?

*Edited because while I feel what I said was correct, I also worry it could put too many ideas and expectations in someone's head that could prevent what I was talking about from naturally occurring.

Suffice it to say that while ordinary bodily or emotional feelings during DI are, as username said, the husk and not the fruit, those feelings have the potential to be a great circumstance to allow recognition to occur or to enhance the recognition one already has. In the latter case, I think it's just like what Namdrol has spoken about before where the Dzogchen teachings say that the sight of a beautiful woman (or man) or some other ravishing perception that causes a visceral, moving experience can enhance a Dzogchen practitioner's experience of rigpa. ("experience," for lack of a better word, as in bringing rigpa to the fore).

Anyway, I would caution people who are new to Dzogchen not to think too much about this stuff and not to form expectations that could possibly impede the nakedness and lack of contrivance on one's part during the direct introduction - either in person and privately with the lama, or from afar in a group or via webcast.

[username]

Transmission occur when you recognize, no matter where you are. But, if you ever received transmission alone with your teacher there is for sure a great difference in depth.

/magnus

What is "depth"?

*Edited because while I feel what I said was correct, I also worry it could put too many ideas and expectations in someone's head that could prevent what I was talking about from naturally occurring.

Suffice it to say that while ordinary bodily or emotional feelings during DI are, as username said, the husk and not the fruit, those feelings have the potential to be a great circumstance to allow recognition to occur or to enhance the recognition one already has. In the latter case, I think it's just like what Namdrol has spoken about before where the Dzogchen teachings say that the sight of a beautiful woman (or man) or some other ravishing perception that causes a visceral, moving experience can enhance a Dzogchen practitioner's experience of rigpa. ("experience," for lack of a better word, as in bringing rigpa to the fore).

Anyway, I would caution people who are new to Dzogchen not to think too much about this stuff and not to form expectations that could possibly impede the nakedness and lack of contrivance on one's part during the direct introduction - either in person and privately with the lama, or from afar in a group or via webcast.

I did not limit it to that tiny section, I specified the ritualistically obsessed and generally all within causality and time, bad or good or mixed. Anything short of instant presence. On your main point I disagree as I explained. The path (methods) and even fruits of all causal vehicles, low or high, short of knowing the primordial state are not the target in Dzogchen's DI. Never mind other pleasant experiences mistaken for dharmic ones or fantasies. Anything, good or bad or mixed or pleasant or shocking etc., can trigger the ultimate realization depending on the person's then circumstances. All depends, one person's meat can be another's poison and varies within occasions too, hence unpredictable and not to cling to nor to welcome nor to block. So it is wrong to generalize and limit DI/Dzogchen meditation's aims with 'causal attainments and/or pleasantries' nor to seek/dwell on during DI as you do and Namdrol never did. Phat is not supposed to please you and other methods have other effects too. Thinking about causal attainments or pleasantries during DI is a known mistake. It is best to simply relax and be open and not block thoughts nor follow them and intend to connect with the guru's state. Senses fully open too so any pleasant or repulsive or neutral etc. thoughts and/or external reflections becomes helpful by being self liberated immediately. Mistaking dharmic causal attainments, however high and praised as you do, or sensations for knowing the primordial state or being attached to them or merely distracted by them during DI or when attempting on one's own are classic pitfalls. These attachments you seek and justify with mistaken generalizations are unnecessary causal complications and psychological machinations and mind games and waste precious moments specially during DI. All should be used by looking at their essence and to be liberated immediately as they distract one from being in the ultimate knowledge.

[Pema Rigdzin]

*Edited because while I feel what I said was correct, I also worry it could put too many ideas and expectations in someone's head that could prevent what I was talking about from naturally occurring.

Suffice it to say that while ordinary bodily or emotional feelings during DI are, as username said, the husk and not the fruit, those feelings have the potential to be a great circumstance to allow recognition to occur or to enhance the recognition one already has. In the latter case, I think it's just like what Namdrol has spoken about before where the Dzogchen teachings say that the sight of a beautiful woman (or man) or some other ravishing perception that causes a visceral, moving experience can enhance a Dzogchen practitioner's experience of rigpa. ("experience," for lack of a better word, as in bringing rigpa to the fore).

Anyway, I would caution people who are new to Dzogchen not to think too much about this stuff and not to form expectations that could possibly impede the nakedness and lack of contrivance on one's part during the direct introduction - either in person and privately with the lama, or from afar in a group or via webcast.

Anything, good or bad or mixed or pleasant or shocking etc., can trigger the ultimate realization depending on the person's then circumstances. It is best to simply relax and be open and not block thoughts nor follow them and intend to connect with the guru's state. Senses fully open too so any pleasant or repulsive or neutral etc. thoughts and/or external reflections becomes helpful by being self liberated immediately.

Nothing I said contradicted these points at all, nor did anything I say contradict anything Namdrol has said on the subject. Here is Namdrol's exact quote:
"However, what is true is that intense aesthetic experiences can be utilized in heightening one's vidyā. A beautiful sunset, pretty music, beautiful smell, a handsome man or a pretty woman, a lovely child, flowers, birds, their song, the murmur of brook, the sound of waves, these things can all be used by a Dzogchen practitioner to heighten their experience of vidyā." That quote can be found here, nearly halfway down, in the comments section: http://www.atikosha.org/2011/01/dzogche ... dhism.html

Similarly, it is simply a fact that visceral experiences that arise naturally while one is relaxing and not contriving anything can be powerful catalysts to recognition of the natural state while the master is introducing it. I have absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. It is a matter of simple common sense that certain situations may be especially conducive to the arising of such powerful, spontaneous experiences - for example, being right in front of one's lama, one on one, in a very intimate setting. If and when those experiences arise, there is a great possibility that they can facilitate a very evident recognition of the natural state.

Regardless, I think we've all agreed that if one has received the direct introduction by a Dzogchen master under any circumstances, one has received the introduction and one either recognizes to the point of being able to go right to the main practice, or one uses the various means within Dzogchen - the rushens and semdzins, etc - to make fully evident to oneself what the master has introduced. What else is there to bicker about?

[Sönam]

Evidently not speaking about emotion or though or what ever, and because all honeys have not the same flavor depending on the fields around the beehive, one component has not the same flavor/intensity when our true nature is realized through a one to one relation ... bodhichitta.

Sönam

[username]

*Edited because while I feel what I said was correct, I also worry it could put too many ideas and expectations in someone's head that could prevent what I was talking about from naturally occurring.

Suffice it to say that while ordinary bodily or emotional feelings during DI are, as username said, the husk and not the fruit, those feelings have the potential to be a great circumstance to allow recognition to occur or to enhance the recognition one already has. In the latter case, I think it's just like what Namdrol has spoken about before where the Dzogchen teachings say that the sight of a beautiful woman (or man) or some other ravishing perception that causes a visceral, moving experience can enhance a Dzogchen practitioner's experience of rigpa. ("experience," for lack of a better word, as in bringing rigpa to the fore).

Anyway, I would caution people who are new to Dzogchen not to think too much about this stuff and not to form expectations that could possibly impede the nakedness and lack of contrivance on one's part during the direct introduction - either in person and privately with the lama, or from afar in a group or via webcast.

Anything, good or bad or mixed or pleasant or shocking etc., can trigger the ultimate realization depending on the person's then circumstances. It is best to simply relax and be open and not block thoughts nor follow them and intend to connect with the guru's state. Senses fully open too so any pleasant or repulsive or neutral etc. thoughts and/or external reflections becomes helpful by being self liberated immediately.

Nothing I said contradicted these points at all, nor did anything I say contradict anything Namdrol has said on the subject. Here is Namdrol's exact quote:
"However, what is true is that intense aesthetic experiences can be utilized in heightening one's vidyā. A beautiful sunset, pretty music, beautiful smell, a handsome man or a pretty woman, a lovely child, flowers, birds, their song, the murmur of brook, the sound of waves, these things can all be used by a Dzogchen practitioner to heighten their experience of vidyā." That quote can be found here, nearly halfway down, in the comments section: http://www.atikosha.org/2011/01/dzogche ... dhism.html

Similarly, it is simply a fact that visceral experiences that arise naturally while one is relaxing and not contriving anything can be powerful catalysts to recognition of the natural state while the master is introducing it. I have absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. It is a matter of simple common sense that certain situations may be especially conducive to the arising of such powerful, spontaneous experiences - for example, being right in front of one's lama, one on one, in a very intimate setting. If and when those experiences arise, there is a great possibility that they can facilitate a very evident recognition of the natural state.

Regardless, I think we've all agreed that if one has received the direct introduction by a Dzogchen master under any circumstances, one has received the introduction and one either recognizes to the point of being able to go right to the main practice, or one uses the various means within Dzogchen - the rushens and semdzins, etc - to make fully evident to oneself what the master has introduced. What else is there to bicker about?

What you are generalizing with pleasantries as well as welcoming and engaging with causal attainments during a short DI is like deducing from a Phat method that the only way is to shock! So obviously Namdrol is teaching one method amongst many as is the norm. In your first post you tried to pit me against him with your mistaken generalization. There are many diverse methods of DI and the same for various grols, PO, semdzins and rushens as listed by Longchenpa and others including Namdrol in the past. He could easily write about frightening and shocking circumstances to trigger presence or the knowledge itself and he has. Then it would be wrong to say he only means unpleasant ones. Many methods can bring about presence and then hopefully rigpa of the state. The point during a short DI is not to block or engage causalities/thoughts and in Trekcho/Upadeshas to immediately recognize and liberate by specific methods and not to dwell on during DI and venerate as you do. I explained all in my post, not just the part you selected and trimmed. As I said wasting precious time by engaginng with thoughts as you advocate specially during a short DI (as is the subject) or even Dzogchen meditation is amongst many listed pitfalls. ChNNR recently taught on these. Your last post doesn't answer any of my many points and is nothing new. Best wishes.

[Pema Rigdzin]

What you are generalizing with pleasantries as well as welcoming and engaging with causal attainments during a short DI is like deducing from a Phat method that the only way is to shock!

Um, I never said anything even remotely resembling that. Try reading the posts before posting a "reply."

So obviously Namdrol is teaching one method amongst many as is the norm.

Yes, I was speaking about a similar principle as the one he was, which is why I quoted him. This should have been obvious to you.

In your first post you tried to pit me against him with your mistaken generalization.

Dude, what is it with your constant paranoid tendency to think people are attacking you? I never pit anyone at all against you. I was AGREEING with you. The very first time I mentioned you was when I paraphrased something you said because it mirrored the exact point I was making lol.

There are many diverse methods of DI and the same for various grols, PO, semdzins and rushens as listed by Longchenpa and others including Namdrol in the past. He could easily write about frightening and shocking circumstances to trigger presence or the knowledge itself and he has. Then it would be wrong to say he only means unpleasant ones.

Regarding your last sentence: Yes, I know this very well, which is why I never did assert that.

Many methods can bring about presence and then hopefully rigpa of the state.

Yup.

The point during a short DI is not to block or engage causalities/thoughts and in Trekcho/Upadeshas to immediately recognize and liberate by specific methods and not to dwell on during DI and venerate as you do. I explained all in my post, not just the part you selected and trimmed. As I said wasting precious time by engaginng with thoughts as you advocate specially during a short DI (as is the subject) or even Dzogchen meditation is amongst many listed pitfalls.

I know very well what the point of direct introduction is, and what the point of tregchod is, thanks. And I never said anything even remotely resembling what you accuse me of above. Every post I wrote made it abundantly clear that Dzogchen is not about pursuing thoughts and, in fact, I edited one of my posts above because (as I said in the post) I didn't want to risk contributing to the formation of concepts and expectations in newcomers that might be problematic during the direct introduction.

Anyway, I'm done talking with you about this because you have two problems that make discussion with you a waste of time:
1. You can't manage to read the lines people write before trying to read between them.
2. You are paranoid and think everyone is always attacking you or the people and things you care about.

[Pema Rigdzin]

And furthermore, username... You and I are vajra brothers under a common guru. So it would be helpful if you would try not to be so adversarial, especially in the complete absence of provocation.

[username]

Hi Pema Rigdzin, Your last 2 posts are contradictory as usual. You said 'Suffice it to say that while ..., as username said, ... In the latter case, I think it's just like what Namdrol has spoken about before where ...' Now more creative editing. I was talking about DI, like many, which you misrepresented. I don't have time for budding pseudo-psychoanalysts either and the field is believed to be nonsense by most experts anyway. Classic misbehavior by weak students: use friends and family as guinea pig. Advice: Don't, specially at home. Also I hope you can overcome anger. I have no realizations and what little I write is parroting what I read or heard and probably full of errors. I don't know you and you might be a great teacher but I'm no teacher, merely too busy with samsaric circumstances. Ask the Loppon what pleasant thoughts and mental labyrinths and holy experiences you should be following during DI. All the best.

When the master (Padmasambhava) was about to leave Tibet for the land of the rakshas, I, Lady Kharchen (Yeshe Tsogyal ), having offered a mandala of gold and turquoise and having turned a wheel of gathering, implored: Oh, Great Master! You are leaving to tame the rakshas. I am left behind here in Tibet. Although I have served you for a long time, master, this old woman has no confidence about the time of death. So I beseech you to kindly give me an instruction condensing all teachings into one, which is concise and easy to practice.

The great master replied: 'Devoted one with a faithful and virtuous mind, listen to me. Although there are many profound key points of body, rest free and relaxed as you feel comfortable. Everything is included in simply that.

Although there are many key points of speech such as breath control and mantra recitation, stop speaking and rest like a mute. Everything is included in simply that.

Although there are many key points of mind such as concentrating, relaxing, projecting, dissolving, and focusing inward, everything is included in simply letting it rest in its natural state, free and easy, without fabrication.

The mind doesn't remain quietly in that state. If one wonders, is it nothing? Like haze in the heat of the sun, it still shimmers and flashes forth. But if one wonders, Is it something? It has no color or shape to identify it but is utterly empty and completely awake, that is the nature of your mind.

Having recognized it as such, to become certain about it, that is the view. To remain undistracted in the state of stillness, without fabrication or fixation, that is the meditation. In that state, to be free from clinging or attachment, accepting or rejecting, hope or fear, toward any of the experiences of the six senses, that is the action.

Whatever doubt or hesitation occurs, supplicate your master. Don't remain in places of ordinary people, practice in seclusion. Give up your clinging to whatever you are most attached to as well as to whomever you have the strongest bond with in this life, and practice. Like that, although your body remains in human form, your mind is equal to the buddhas'.

- Dakini Teachings

[adinatha]

You know I was wondering if anyone knows what's the origin of the Semzin of the Syllable Phat?

It's present in the tantra Dra Thalgyur, don't know about earlier.

This has been a wonderful thread. Thanks for answering all my questions.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Ask the Loppon what pleasant thoughts and mental labyrinths and holy experiences you should be following during DI. All the best.

Again, I have never even come close to saying one should be following an iota of "pleasant thoughts, mental labyrinths, or holy experiences" or contriving anything at all during either DI or tregchod. And all I ever did was quote what you said about mental experiences not being the natural state - agreeing with you - and then only expanded on that by saying that while that is absolutely true, the spontaneous arising of certain experiences can be helpful as triggers for spontaneous recognition of the natural state.

Notice I keep saying "spontaneous," which means not contrived, not created, and I keep following that with the equivalent of "triggers spontaneous recognition of the natural state," which obviously means it does not involve objectifying or following anything. It is spontaneous. It is recognition of the natural state, which we all understand is beyond mind.

Now, why did I originally say any of this? I originally posted in response to a question some posters were asking, which was: why did Magnus assert that receiving DI in person, one on one with the guru, might be more powerful than from afar via webcast? So I explained why that MIGHT be the case - precisely to explain that it has nothing to do with anything from the master's side, and all to do with one's own relative circumstances. Because, after all, before the DI, one's experience is entirely relative despite the natural state, no? So certain ordinary experiences especially have the potential to create the space for the recognition. I never said anything about DI only happening through any one method, nor did I say participation in the DI involved creating and following dualistic concepts. I only mentioned a couple circumstances in which the possibility of recognition might increase.

That is all I ever said. Now, can you please try to respect our relationship as vajra siblings and cease your condescension and recognize that I have not maligned you or attacked you or even disagreed with you?

*edited because I did not clearly word one of my points and made a confusing typo in another place.

[username]

Cosmos, like the mind, stirs and arises and ceases, and then all over again. But nothing has really happened. Like everything else, a semdzin opportunity for the observant shrewd tiger, hidden in ambush pouncing at just the right instance. Then gone the golden moment.