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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:49 am 
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1- Ask Jane/Joe Blog on the street what is tantric? Sex! Now some professional hatchet job troll, paid or unpaid/Chinese Government's related or not or part of their 50,000 internet cops some abroad or not/... doesn't matter, calls himself/herself a Tibetan name! and says SHOCKS some tantra involves sex!

2- "Ex-tantric Students of Dalai Lama revealed ..."! When the lie is exposed they're Zenpas who stood at the door in a few speeches before their financial arrangements with the Chinese government, no apology, other diversionary smears.

3- What about female mistresses having consorts? Or most who are in nunneries?

4- In many parts of Tibet, as in parts of China's Yunan, women can choose to have more than one husband/boyfriend. Liberated long before the 60's.

5- Nearly 2 billion muslims have female age of consent as 9, s/he comes here saying Tsongkhapa said 13/16/20, HORROR! Your elderly Mao, biggest mass murderer in history now in hell to be joined by his living evil mercenary mandala whether you belive in hell or not, surrounded himself with numerous nude young teen girls in private.

6- Tantric texts? Age of consent in Europe starts from 14 & 13! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

If these professional smearing mercenaries or ex-pat nationalists, brainwashing themselves not to believe in their hellish destination, are not stopped on forums then more of their 50,000 colleagues join them. See Phayul forum history for the range they cover. Their IP numbers should be logged. When overseas residents systematically attacking the Tibetan cause have financial arrangements with Beijing authorities, they are by default under various Chinese Intelligence organizations. You can easily smell them. Some act in other capacities, couriers contacts etc., too and should be watched. Ask them about execution buses, biggest concentration camps ever, Falun Gong massacres, mass organ harvesting, etc. Oh yes they should be assured long stays in hellish world systems exist after their few short years here. Maybe Urgyen Chodron has been unknowingly brainwashed by such a mercenary many of whom are well known on Phayul! Or maybe not! Sweet dreams.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:12 am 
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tamdrin wrote:


Actually according to Highest Yoga Tantra .. You do need sex to reach enlightenment, .. but that is another discussion.. If you don't like the idea of sex as practice and want to practice Vajrayana your best bet is with the Gelukpa sect as they, in general, follow the example of Je Tsongkhapa who maintained pure monastic vows, thus he didn't use a consort, and consequently he was said to have achieved enlightenment in the bardo instead of in this life. Although there are always exeptions, in Gelukpa too.. Stuff happens in secret, people aren't perfect. And this type of consort practice that is found in vajrayana is not a teacher taking advantage of a student, or at least it shouldn't be- I agree with you there! What pissess me off is the monks who pretend on the outside that they are monks- but in secret they take women.. This is pretty common in Tibetan Buddhism-unfortunately. Maybe you should question yourself as to why you feel such an aversion to people using sex on the path if it is a consensual relationship?


Is this post above also wrong? Am I now to believe by the last two posts that you don't need sex for enlightenment as Nimdrol posted? Or that sex isn't part of the practice as Tamdrin just posted?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Yes, that is what I am asked to believe, but then I found that you can buy The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra at Amazon by a Tibetan monk and teacher, a forbidden book that goes into details of the empowerments, and they are certainly sexual. No way around it, you are asked to visualize fondling breasts of a 12 year old girl, it goes into detail of the other empowerments, and when the teacher gets the highest empowerments he can have a consort. So basically, what the Trimondi's wrote is very true. NOT OUT OF CONTEXT.

But to tell others about the practice is a big downfall, many moons in hell, to even read it without being initiated the same. I can see why teachers often say it is not about sex. At least Namdrol has been honest about it here.

I left my teacher after reading this book.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Urgyen Chodron wrote:

But to tell others about the practice is a big downfall, many moons in hell, to even read it without being initiated the same. I can see why teachers often say it is not about sex. At least Namdrol has been honest about it here.



Sex is part of tantric practice, but so is eating, sleeping, walking and talking. Tantric practice is designed to include all elements from our life as part of the process of waking up.

Either you can accept this; or if not, it is better for you to practice Theravada or a Mahayāna form of Buddhism.

N

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Urgyen try practising Lamrim Its far easier to get ones head around and without contraversial aspects. :namaste:

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Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:21 pm 
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when you go to a website on kalachakra and the lineage i was in and see that they talk about seminal retention in the empowerments, there is nothing else to talk about. put it together with what i read in the book, it is easy to even accept the trimondis. i do not believe that buddha ever taught the tantras and many scholars agree that he didn't. it basically came from india, and even a lot of hindus are against it, embarrassed by it and call it black magic. don't ask me where i read this because i don't wish to look for the sources again.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:31 pm 
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So don't practice Vajrayana. What's the deal? Is anyone forcing it upon you? No, right?
But please don't engage in campaigns to smear it due to your lack of understanding and poorly chosen sources.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Urgyen Chodron wrote:
when you go to a website on kalachakra and the lineage i was in and see that they talk about seminal retention in the empowerments, there is nothing else to talk about. put it together with what i read in the book, it is easy to even accept the trimondis. i do not believe that buddha ever taught the tantras and many scholars agree that he didn't. it basically came from india, and even a lot of hindus are against it, embarrassed by it and call it black magic. don't ask me where i read this because i don't wish to look for the sources again.


The tradition is that Buddha Shakyamuni transformed into Heruka to subjugate the most powerful samsaric deities, and in that form while simultaneously in his human form, transmitted the practices of initiation, mandala, deity yoga and completion stage to different kings and such so they could have a road to buddhahood in one life. The Guhyasamaja, Kalachakra, Hevajra, Chakrasamvara, etc., etc., are all like this. The particular places and times of these transmissions is known in the traditions. There are others Guru Rinpoche transmitted when he met Vajrasattva and Vajrakilaya has him as the Buddha transformed. The Dzogchen Tantras come directly from Samantabhadra. Some Mahasiddhas like Saraha and Tilopa achieved levels in Tantric practice and had direct contact with Buddha Vajradhara and some Mahamudra Dakini tantras were revealed. The early tantras were not written until much later than their transmission. They were kept in an oral lineage of utter secrecy for 1000 years or so before different masters started writing them down.

So you need to understand this history. You also need to understand there are different levels of tantras, and then the oral lineages that stem from those tantras can vary dramatically from what the tantras say. In Kagyu, which has two main tantras in the tradition, Chakrasamvara and Vajradakini, the practice is deity yoga, and Six Yogas of Naropa. There's no karmamudra in Six Yogas. But you won't know that from reading the Chakrasamvara Tantra which talks about karmamudra throughout.

Tantra is a big world. Explore it with an open mind before deciding to discard it. There are many things here that really do accelerate the awakening process, particularly with respect to prana, nadi and bindu. These are real, related to the physical functions of the body-mind complex. There are very high level practices that do not involve sex, like Avalokiteshvara rituals, Green Tara, etc. But the groundwork for all these vajrayana practices comes from these tantras that do involve working with sexual energy. Keep in mind, that we are all Earth, Fire, Water, Wind and Space. Sexual energy is nothing more than that.

Finally, tantra is also intended to cause you to overcome your conceptual predilections. It introduces many taboos to your practice so that you can let go of your ego attachments. Nothing like screwing your mother in a cremation ground covered in corpse ash and human skins whilst blowing on a human femur trumpet while eating shit, spit, snot, semen and menstrual blood to burn up your conceptual mind. Of course, I'm talking about a visualization.... :smile:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Sex is part of tantric practice, but so is eating, sleeping, walking and talking. Tantric practice is designed to include all elements from our life as part of the process of waking up.


Just don't be attached to sex, eating, and sleeping if the goal is enlightenment. The path is the path of detachment. It is fine that if you think that's the part of waking up, but eventually attachment to sex, eating, and sleeping must be gone at some point or some stage.

If the goal is enlightenment, eventually we will have to detach from sex, eating, and sleeping anyway. Why lingering now? Why not abandon it now? Just unnecessary if truly the goal is enlightenment.

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:26 pm 
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The history of how Tantra came to Tibet by a Tibetan just isn't so. Buddha never taught Tantra. He never had secret teachings.

Trash it? Who me? I think that Tantra has trashed the good name of Buddha.

This is like a different lineage in Christianity starting centuries after Christ's dead, and trying to convince people that Jesus had a consort, had sex, etc. and then asking traditional Christians to not bash this belief, to just accept it because it is the truth, and because we all have freedom of religion. For me to accept Tantra teachings is for me to let go of my decency. Why not just kill people in the name of Buddha. You can have sex, meditation, and murder, well, add the alcohol too, all in one sitting and ask people to accept that too. And after you murder the person, you can sit and eat a Hershey's bar.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:48 pm 
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If sex involves in the path to enlightenment, then that is not Buddha's teachings. I am sure the true form of Tantra would be no different than any other forms of practice. Sex, Sleeping, and Eating give the body pleasures which we are attached to, by attaching to these how can we realize enlightenment? Buddha gave up sensual pleasures and everything because they are attachments and a big hindrance. Can't walk the path to enlightenment while being attached at the same time. The path of enlightenment is the path of detachment=the path of enlightenment is the path of renunciation. Shaved heads do not mean renunciation. They have to truly renounce sensual pleasures and everything else. These people actually hold precepts and vows dearly. These are called real bukkhishs (spell?). So the path of renunciation is the path for all not just for monks if one is to aim at enlightenment.

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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


Last edited by LastLegend on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
So don't practice Vajrayana. What's the deal? Is anyone forcing it upon you? No, right?
But please don't engage in campaigns to smear it due to your lack of understanding and poorly chosen sources.

That's what I keep thinking too. It's ironic, usually when you think of someone obsessed with sex you'd think they'd actually find that part attractive instead of repulsive. :rolling:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Urgyen Chodron wrote:
The history of how Tantra came to Tibet by a Tibetan just isn't so. Buddha never taught Tantra. He never had secret teachings.

Trash it? Who me? I think that Tantra has trashed the good name of Buddha.

This is like a different lineage in Christianity starting centuries after Christ's dead, and trying to convince people that Jesus had a consort, had sex, etc. and then asking traditional Christians to not bash this belief, to just accept it because it is the truth, and because we all have freedom of religion. For me to accept Tantra teachings is for me to let go of my decency. Why not just kill people in the name of Buddha. You can have sex, meditation, and murder, well, add the alcohol too, all in one sitting and ask people to accept that too. And after you murder the person, you can sit and eat a Hershey's bar.

You're full of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:58 pm 
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Urgyen Chodron wrote:
This is like a different lineage in Christianity starting centuries after Christ's dead, and trying to convince people that Jesus had a consort, had sex, etc. and then asking traditional Christians to not bash this belief, to just accept it because it is the truth, and because we all have freedom of religion. For me to accept Tantra teachings is for me to let go of my decency. Why not just kill people in the name of Buddha. You can have sex, meditation, and murder, well, add the alcohol too, all in one sitting and ask people to accept that too. And after you murder the person, you can sit and eat a Hershey's bar.

ROFL that is hilarious. Ironic too as it's quite possible Jesus had a "consort" and had sex, which was just later covered up. :stirthepot:

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Urgyen Chodron wrote:
The history of how Tantra came to Tibet by a Tibetan just isn't so. Buddha never taught Tantra. He never had secret teachings.

Trash it? Who me? I think that Tantra has trashed the good name of Buddha.

This is like a different lineage in Christianity starting centuries after Christ's dead, and trying to convince people that Jesus had a consort, had sex, etc. and then asking traditional Christians to not bash this belief, to just accept it because it is the truth, and because we all have freedom of religion. For me to accept Tantra teachings is for me to let go of my decency. Why not just kill people in the name of Buddha. You can have sex, meditation, and murder, well, add the alcohol too, all in one sitting and ask people to accept that too. And after you murder the person, you can sit and eat a Hershey's bar.


Preach it, Pastor Urgyen! Can I get a Witness?! Good God, y'all!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Pastor Urgyen? Seriously? You need to chill. Buddhism is the chill zone. Non-judgmental, tolerant, loving and kind.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:30 pm 
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POLITE NOTE

It seems this topic is toxic and certain members are unable to abide by the current, simple to understand, Terms of Service (ToS).

The current ToS state clearly:-
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1. All members are responsible for their own Right Speech

Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions.


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

As friendliness and mutual respect are not being practiced, in fact in some cases rather the opposite, this topic is locked until further notice.

Regards,
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