Mindrolling lineage

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Mindrolling lineage

Postby upasaka » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:32 pm

What was a ranking of Midrolling lineage in vajrayana buddhism? How much Terdag Lingpa affected another lineages and schools?
What is the best characterization of this lineage?

All comments are welcome. :-)
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:32 pm

I can't completely answer your question, but I seem to recall hearing that Mindroling maintains a strong practice of Kama practices.....but then again, Palyul has annual Drupchens for several Kama transmissions as well, IIRC.

Definitely Minling Dorsem is one of the most famous yidam practices, Kongtrul said it combined Kama and Terma streams. If I recall, Minling has a Yangdak tradition that also combines Kama and Terma.

Interested to hear more, from more knowledgeable folks than I....
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:41 pm

I always wondered, is 'mindrolling' like 'mind rolling'? ...like the mind is rolling around, or like you are rolling the mind up like a yoga mat or a joint, or a sushi wrap or something?
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby upasaka » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:16 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I always wondered, is 'mindrolling' like 'mind rolling'? ...like the mind is rolling around, or like you are rolling the mind up like a yoga mat or a joint, or a sushi wrap or something?


Actually, it is not. ;-)

However, the lineage is not pronounced ‘mind rolling’—it is min drol ling. They are three different words, where min means ‘ripening,’ drol means ‘liberating’ and ling means ‘garden.’ The literal translation would be ‘the garden of ripening and liberation.’
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby ngodrup » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:17 pm

Mindrolling tradition is very special. Terdak Lingpa's idea of a monastery was
to be unconcerned about its size, a hundred monks was enough. What mattered
to him was "elegant practice." Meaning each practice was performed in the
perfect way. No texts were allowed in the shrine, as all sadhanas were memorized.
The melodies are long and flowing; have a distinct cadence. The Umze (chant master)
is always heard, because the sangha chants at half is volume. Drumming is gentle.
The mudras also are performed in a small and refined way. Shechen has this litugical
style adopted from Mindrolling.

The main practice of is the Termas of Terdak Lingpa built around the Kagye 8 herukas.
They also maintain an annual cycle of retreats on Vajrasattva,Vajrakilaya, Yamantaka,
9 Dharmapalas, Guru Drakpo, etc. Tsiu Marpo is an important protector.

Other distinctive aspects are that it is a hereditary tradition, maintains both
ngakpa and monastic sanghas and has a female lineage holder who can be either
a nun or ngakmo. So the Mindrolling Trichen is a yogi, the khenpo is often his
brother and then there's the Khandro who in this time is Khandro Rinpoche, the daughter
of the last Minling Trichen.

H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje was a Mindrolling Lineage Lama, therefore
those who practice Dudjom Tersar typically follow Mindrolling liturgical forms. His
descendents also practice this way.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:16 pm

Ngodrup, that's an awesome post, thanks.

What, if anything, can you say about the other main monastic seats of the Nyingma, in relation?
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby ngodrup » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:39 pm

What? Like Dorje Drak follows Northern Termas,
and Dzogchen mainly follows Longchenpa,
Let's see at Katog, the main thing is Namcho.

That kind of thing?

I mainly come from Mindrolling, Palyul and Dodrupchen--
When you attend practices of each they may even use
the same text in some cases, but the melodies, way of
playing damaru, etc. is quite different.

But then there are sub-schools: sometimes the melodies
are almost like folk songs.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:48 pm

We have something similar in Karma Kagyu.....TsurLuk and Palpung Luk are sometimes different, liturgically. And sometimes even instructions on the same text, regarding how to perform the sadhana, in what order things go, etc., will differ.

I've not been to enough group practices at different lineage centers to note differences, but I can tell that my traditions of mudra, damaru/bell, music, Melodies, etc., are different. Though it's funny to hear a melody I recognize--this happened at ODD in Alameda once--it was the KarLing Shitro melody which Karma Kagyupas use, often during YangKuks or Chendrens....
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Vajrahridaya » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:44 pm

Sheesh, you guys know so much. I'm happy to be here... seems like again. All the same faces from E-Sangha! :woohoo:
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Sherab » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:32 am

ngodrup wrote:Let's see at Katog, the main thing is Namcho.

I think it is Palyul that practises mainly Namcho.
Kathog would generally be practices of Longsal Nyingpo.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Ashocka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:34 am

Shechen Monastery based it's tradition on the Mindrolling tradition, as did a number of other practice traditions due to it's thoroughness. Even though they evolved, they take Mindrolling tradition, study and practice as the base.

Best to ask a scholar or lama for more.... I come from the fuzzy mind tradition.

(PS... Karma Lhundup Rinpoche told me that someone came to him requesting the Mind Rolling instructions :juggling: )
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby upasaka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:03 am

Terdag Lingpa transmitted the precious teachings to numerous fortunate students who gathered before the great master, drinking the nectar of his speech. Foremost amongst his personal disciples was the supreme conqueror, the precious Fifth Dalai Lama with whom he shared a patron-priest relationship.

Many other renowned masters of the time considered him their teacher: Sangyay Gyatso, the regent of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, Rigzin Pema Thrinley of Dorje Drak, Sakya Trizin Kunga Tashi, the Zhabdrung (along with his successor and the other personages at Tsethang and Neudong), the Tsurphu Gyaltsab, Trehor Choktrul, Drikung Kunchok Thrinley Zangpo, Taklungpa Tenzin Sizhi Namgyal, Drukpa Paksam Wangpo, Gampo Choktrul Zangpo Dorje, Chamdo Gyalwa Phagpa Lha, Ngawang Chökyi Tulku, Ngawang Kunga Tenzin of Dokham, Kathog Gyalsay Sonam Detsen, the second Dzogchen Pema Rigzin Jurme Thekchog Tenzin.

Of the great famous masters in that period, there seem to have been none who did not supplicate him.

Terdag Lingpa's Legacy

"At a time when the elucidation and accomplishment of the wonderful legacy of Trisong Deutsen and other great masters of the transmitted precepts and traditions of the Nyingma School, foremost amongst which is the trilogy of The Sutra which Gathers All Intentions, The Magical Net and The Mental Class, had almost become like a lamp that had run out of oil, Terdag Lingpa, with courageous and untiring great perseverance, sought out those transmissions and traditions and restored the teachings from their very foundations through his efforts and attainments. In fact, because of the kindness of this great Bodhisattva, his brothers, disciples and his descendants, the Sa-Nga Nyingmapa or the Ancient School of Secret Mantrayana has been equal to the meaning of its name, and its genuine, continuous lineage has increased without decline down to the present day. Therefore, none can match Terdag Lingpa's wonderful kindness and legacy. Due to the efforts of this great master, we later Nyingmapa do not merely rely on ephemeral ceremonies and rituals and refer to them as profound doctrines but continue to maintain this tradition in its pure form, which is a great treasure trove of teachings."
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Ashocka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:55 pm

As conebeckham has mentioned, the Minling Dorsum is also the main Dorsum practiced at Shechen.

As I understand it, it is not only the practice lineage, but it is the the method of rituals, the study structure, the way the shedra study is structured, the annual curriculum and the main drupchen structure, etc, etc, basically the whole structure of monastic discipline that is implemented that embodies the Mindrolling tradition. The depth and breadth of this tradition is so highly venerated... as are many other traditions, if you look into them.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby dzoki » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:54 pm

Not to forget Terdag Lingpa´s brother Lochen Dharmashri who authored many important texts used by many nyingma monasteries up to this day.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Ashocka » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:33 am

ngodrup wrote:What? Like Dorje Drak follows Northern Termas,
and Dzogchen mainly follows Longchenpa,
Let's see at Katog, the main thing is Namcho.

That kind of thing?

I mainly come from Mindrolling, Palyul and Dodrupchen--
When you attend practices of each they may even use
the same text in some cases, but the melodies, way of
playing damaru, etc. is quite different.

But then there are sub-schools: sometimes the melodies
are almost like folk songs.


I once asked a lama if he could teach me the mudras and rituals instruments associated with the Rigdzin Dupa sadhana, and he replied "Which tradition do you want to learn it according too?", as he knew it according to a number of different traditions.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby ngodrup » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:38 am

Yes, it is disconcerting to visit a center and get asked
by the resident lama to play an instrument at puja if
they follow a different tradition than you.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby username » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:23 am

Migyur's Namcho cycles is more Palyul as well as Karma etc. Kagyus whose waning influence it revived. Katog is a multiplex with numerous local branches and it is more logical in it's approach a-la Mipham, though not as cerebrally focused as Dodrubchen's which via Dodrubchens/Nyushuls and Jigmed Lingpa's system is close to Gelug's framework of teachings. Katog does everything like Nalanda or modern universities and was famous for Shentong but it does a lot of Nyingma tantras (whole range) and Dzogchen and it is said thousands attained rainbow bodies after death in and around Katog HQ. Dorje Drak, now tiny, was the official boss of Nyingmas according to Lhasa and China. This sort of passed on to Mindrolling and it's still so. Though Nyingma's numerous local/families/ngagpas/etc. wild-bunch lineages don't recognize anybody as boss short of Guru Rinpoche himself or if pushed someone like Dudjom or Chatral. But Mindrolling's family bone lineage , like Sakya Trizin's, and Terdag Lingpa’s terma and monasteries are well respected as scholarly and spiritual and specially blessed. Dzogchen has strong ties with Kagyus. Drikungs are close to Nyingmas. Drukpas more so and with Katog and Mindrolling have strong and very old and future ties with Dudjom manifestations who under different names set-up or revived them and teaches their bosses. Choklings are in essence Nyingma but then are all Guru Rinpoche/Yeshe Tsogyal terma followers. If you ask me Kagyus, Sakyas, Gelugs and New Bon are basically other local lineages of Nyingma and Guru Rinpoche too. It's very funny.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Ashocka » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:37 am

ngodrup wrote:Yes, it is disconcerting to visit a center and get asked
by the resident lama to play an instrument at puja if
they follow a different tradition than you.


I think most will appreciate anyone doing their best to play it according to the tradition they were taught in, with at least a little understanding of what they are doing. Most of us don't have the fortune to study like they did in Tibet in the past and learn many different traditions. Ritual study is also a specialized branch in most Shedras.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby ngodrup » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:14 am

Hopefully you can follow, but sometimes you are the only drummer for example.
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Re: Mindrolling lineage

Postby Ashocka » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:58 am

ngodrup wrote:Hopefully you can follow, but sometimes you are the only drummer for example.


I think you are probably at least more competent than I. My ritual competence definelty needs more education and practice. :juggling: But regardless of that, it is just good to know about these things, then there is a possibility of learning and investigating the depth of the different traditions, and just appreciating them.
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