Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

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adinatha
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Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by adinatha »

Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Vajrahridaya »

adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
I'm also curious of the answer. :thinking:
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by adinatha »

NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?

Then, NNR make the Song of the Vajra into a Semzin too. Is it a direct introduction too? I'm curious about the source of the semzin and direct introduction of these things. Since I don't yet read Tibetan I can't do any research into the tantras themselves.

Also Namdrol la you mentioned these things are going to be published. Do you know when that might be?
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by heart »

adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Paul »

heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus
I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by heart »

Hayagriva wrote:
heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus
I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!
Yes, Lama Wangdu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqNhj5QL5GA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Sönam »

Patrul Rinpoche in The Extraordinary Reality of Sovereign Wisdom, a short elaboration on The Three Precepts of Garab Dorje ...

I Direct Introduction to the Nature of Mind

First, keep the mind relaxed,
without projecting or concentrating, free of discursive thought,
and in that space of relaxed openness
abruptly utter a mind-shattering PHAT!
forcefully, loud, and short - and there it is!
...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Adamantine »

heart wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:
I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!
Yes, Lama Wangdu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqNhj5QL5GA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus
I'm guessing that can't be the same video: Lama Wangdu shouts Phat and those boys don't even flinch a tiny bit, let alone jump a mile!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Sönam »

This PHAT! process seems to contradict the necessity of the pointing out by the master ...

PHAT! process may introduce one to emptiness, but not to the recognition of our real nature ... which is not only emptiness.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Paul »

Sönam wrote:This PHAT! process seems to contradict the necessity of the pointing out by the master ...

PHAT! process may introduce one to emptiness, but not to the recognition of our real nature ... which is not only emptiness.

Sönam
FWIW, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche explains how to use the experience to recognise rigpa.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Sönam »

Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...
Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Paul »

Sönam wrote:
Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...
Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam
Sorry, "For What It's Worth".
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Sönam »

Hayagriva wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...
Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam
Sorry, "For What It's Worth".
Thanks ... so as you say FWIW

S
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by dzoki »

adinatha wrote: Then, NNR make the Song of the Vajra into a Semzin too.
Nope, rdo rje glu - the song of vajra is listed among the 21 semdzins in Nida khajor tantra of mengade section.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by dzoki »

adinatha wrote:NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?
I don´t know that Rinpoche said that, because semdzin of PHAT is also in Nyida khajor tantra. Semdzins are methods, direct introduction is something else. I think method for introduction with PHAT is in case of Namkhai Norbu connected to his terma called Yeshe Zangthal - which is a method for direct introduction to the natural state, but I dont have that text at my hand, so I cannot confirm that.
There are many different semdzins, in DC we use two collections, one is Nyida khajor, the other one is in Longchenpa´s Thegchog dzo, they are more or less same, although arrangement differs and some semdzins included in one are not included in other and vice versa. Longsal terma of Namkhai Norbu lists specificaly 7 semdzins. There are also semdzins in semde.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by pemachophel »

Dzoki,

The following question is for information only. It's not meant to cause a row. I myself am a student of ChNNR (among other Lamas). However, speaking of terma, there is a long history of false terma in Tibetan Buddhism. For instance, see Ju Mipham's very candid and heart-felt essay on false terma. Therefore, it is usually considered extremely important that some other highly respected Lama other than the terton authenticate the validity of any new terma. An example of this was Khyentse Wangpo's authentification of the Chokling Tersar terma. Similarly, I believe H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche authenticated Pegyal Lingpa's terma. So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Thanks
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by dzoki »

pemachophel wrote:Dzoki,

The following question is for information only. It's not meant to cause a row. I myself am a student of ChNNR (among other Lamas). However, speaking of terma, there is a long history of false terma in Tibetan Buddhism. For instance, see Ju Mipham's very candid and heart-felt essay on false terma. Therefore, it is usually considered extremely important that some other highly respected Lama other than the terton authenticate the validity of any new terma. An example of this was Khyentse Wangpo's authentification of the Chokling Tersar terma. Similarly, I believe H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche authenticated Pegyal Lingpa's terma. So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Thanks
Yes it is very, true for the majority of termas, that is for the termas within Nyingma lineage. I don´t know how it is for the termas in Kagyu lineage - I mean non nyingma termas, such as those hidden by Marpa Lotsawa, Rechungpa and Gampopa. Although Namkhai Norbu´s terma is somewhat related to Guru Padmasambhava - some of those discovered teachings are indicated as upadesdha of Padmasambhava, but the source of this terma is dakini Gomadevi. Also Namkhai Norbu himself stated that this terma is not like nyingma termas. Also nyingma termas in general contain practices of outer tantras, mahayoga, anuyoga and atiyoga. However Namkhai Norbu´s terma is only anuyoga and atiyoga. So I guess this is the reason why it would not given for authentication. It is simply a bit out of scope. In any case this is just my opinion. I don´t know whether Rinpoche actualy had it authenticated or not, I am just speculating. It would be best to ask Rinpoche himself.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote:So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by Stewart »

Lol!
s.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Post by dzoki »

Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N
Well that wouldn´t be a very polite answer to your lama.
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