Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

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Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby adinatha » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:01 pm

Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Vajrahridaya » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:50 am

adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?


I'm also curious of the answer. :thinking:
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:02 am

NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?

Then, NNR make the Song of the Vajra into a Semzin too. Is it a direct introduction too? I'm curious about the source of the semzin and direct introduction of these things. Since I don't yet read Tibetan I can't do any research into the tantras themselves.

Also Namdrol la you mentioned these things are going to be published. Do you know when that might be?
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:51 am

adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?


I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Paul » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:25 pm

heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?


I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus


I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:35 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Querying what is the source of the method of direct introduction with syllable Phat?


I don't know the source, probably Namdrol knows, but I think you should understand that it could be anything that make a sudden sound could be used. I heard Lama's using clapping their hands, slapping the table and many other sounds. The mantra Phat is although considered powerful for it's capacity to cut through delusion. My teacher once gave an explanation of the meaning of Phat but unfortunately my memory is not that good.

/magnus


I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!


Yes, Lama Wangdu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqNhj5QL5GA

/magnus
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Sönam » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:46 pm

Patrul Rinpoche in The Extraordinary Reality of Sovereign Wisdom, a short elaboration on The Three Precepts of Garab Dorje ...

I Direct Introduction to the Nature of Mind

First, keep the mind relaxed,
without projecting or concentrating, free of discursive thought,
and in that space of relaxed openness
abruptly utter a mind-shattering PHAT!
forcefully, loud, and short - and there it is!
...

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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:07 pm

heart wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:
I saw a great video of a chod yogi giving two young boys an empowerment that had a direct introduction at the end of it. After some chanting and so on he just shouted BOO at them. It was awesome - they jumped a mile!


Yes, Lama Wangdu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqNhj5QL5GA

/magnus


I'm guessing that can't be the same video: Lama Wangdu shouts Phat and those boys don't even flinch a tiny bit, let alone jump a mile!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Sönam » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:33 pm

This PHAT! process seems to contradict the necessity of the pointing out by the master ...

PHAT! process may introduce one to emptiness, but not to the recognition of our real nature ... which is not only emptiness.

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Paul » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:46 pm

Sönam wrote:This PHAT! process seems to contradict the necessity of the pointing out by the master ...

PHAT! process may introduce one to emptiness, but not to the recognition of our real nature ... which is not only emptiness.

Sönam


FWIW, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche explains how to use the experience to recognise rigpa.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Sönam » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:54 pm

Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...

Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Paul » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:03 pm

Sönam wrote:
Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...

Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam


Sorry, "For What It's Worth".
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Sönam » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:09 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Hayagriva wrote: ...
FWIW, ...

Sorry I'm not familiar with it ? (For What I W ?) :shrug:

Sönam


Sorry, "For What It's Worth".


Thanks ... so as you say FWIW

S
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby dzoki » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:25 pm

adinatha wrote:Then, NNR make the Song of the Vajra into a Semzin too.


Nope, rdo rje glu - the song of vajra is listed among the 21 semdzins in Nida khajor tantra of mengade section.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby dzoki » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:24 am

adinatha wrote:NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?


I don´t know that Rinpoche said that, because semdzin of PHAT is also in Nyida khajor tantra. Semdzins are methods, direct introduction is something else. I think method for introduction with PHAT is in case of Namkhai Norbu connected to his terma called Yeshe Zangthal - which is a method for direct introduction to the natural state, but I dont have that text at my hand, so I cannot confirm that.
There are many different semdzins, in DC we use two collections, one is Nyida khajor, the other one is in Longchenpa´s Thegchog dzo, they are more or less same, although arrangement differs and some semdzins included in one are not included in other and vice versa. Longsal terma of Namkhai Norbu lists specificaly 7 semdzins. There are also semdzins in semde.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby pemachophel » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:49 pm

Dzoki,

The following question is for information only. It's not meant to cause a row. I myself am a student of ChNNR (among other Lamas). However, speaking of terma, there is a long history of false terma in Tibetan Buddhism. For instance, see Ju Mipham's very candid and heart-felt essay on false terma. Therefore, it is usually considered extremely important that some other highly respected Lama other than the terton authenticate the validity of any new terma. An example of this was Khyentse Wangpo's authentification of the Chokling Tersar terma. Similarly, I believe H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche authenticated Pegyal Lingpa's terma. So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Thanks
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby dzoki » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:12 pm

pemachophel wrote:Dzoki,

The following question is for information only. It's not meant to cause a row. I myself am a student of ChNNR (among other Lamas). However, speaking of terma, there is a long history of false terma in Tibetan Buddhism. For instance, see Ju Mipham's very candid and heart-felt essay on false terma. Therefore, it is usually considered extremely important that some other highly respected Lama other than the terton authenticate the validity of any new terma. An example of this was Khyentse Wangpo's authentification of the Chokling Tersar terma. Similarly, I believe H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche authenticated Pegyal Lingpa's terma. So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)

Thanks

Yes it is very, true for the majority of termas, that is for the termas within Nyingma lineage. I don´t know how it is for the termas in Kagyu lineage - I mean non nyingma termas, such as those hidden by Marpa Lotsawa, Rechungpa and Gampopa. Although Namkhai Norbu´s terma is somewhat related to Guru Padmasambhava - some of those discovered teachings are indicated as upadesdha of Padmasambhava, but the source of this terma is dakini Gomadevi. Also Namkhai Norbu himself stated that this terma is not like nyingma termas. Also nyingma termas in general contain practices of outer tantras, mahayoga, anuyoga and atiyoga. However Namkhai Norbu´s terma is only anuyoga and atiyoga. So I guess this is the reason why it would not given for authentication. It is simply a bit out of scope. In any case this is just my opinion. I don´t know whether Rinpoche actualy had it authenticated or not, I am just speculating. It would be best to ask Rinpoche himself.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:18 pm

pemachophel wrote:So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)



Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Stewart » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:21 pm

Lol!
s.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby dzoki » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again. :-)



Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N

Well that wouldn´t be a very polite answer to your lama.
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