What is the TM view of the center channel?

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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:54 pm

adinatha wrote:
So then what goes down the sides of the neck and into the heart? I see vagus and phrenic nerves. Vagus powers the heart; phrenic the diaphragm.



Optic nerve connects directly into the brain. The way it is described is that this channel is in the central channel. it goes up into the brain and then branches out to the eyes.

Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
So then what goes down the sides of the neck and into the heart? I see vagus and phrenic nerves. Vagus powers the heart; phrenic the diaphragm.



Optic nerve connects directly into the brain. The way it is described is that this channel is in the central channel. it goes up into the brain and then branches out to the eyes.

Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N


Well vagus is attached to the cranial nerve nucleus along with the optic, and the phrenic is not. But the phrenic and vagus seem to work together with regard to cardio-pulmonary motor function. So there may be a combination of function described here.

You've said before that the central channel is the arterial system, and the side channels are the venal system and spinal cord. Is this a Dzogchen special description?

Just from looking at them; it appears right and left channels are venal and arterial systems respectively; central channel would be the spinal cord. This would account for the interaction with the optic, vagus and phrenic nerves in the function of Ati yoga sadhana.
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N


I'm sort of trippin' out about this stuff right now... very cool.

With regard to the colors. I was just noticing that perhaps the Bonpos have it right: Red-fire, blue-water, yellow-earth, green-air, and white (clear)-space.

This schema just seem to correspond more accurately to space... What do you think?
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:41 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
So then what goes down the sides of the neck and into the heart? I see vagus and phrenic nerves. Vagus powers the heart; phrenic the diaphragm.



Optic nerve connects directly into the brain. The way it is described is that this channel is in the central channel. it goes up into the brain and then branches out to the eyes.

Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N


Well vagus is attached to the cranial nerve nucleus along with the optic, and the phrenic is not. But the phrenic and vagus seem to work together with regard to cardio-pulmonary motor function. So there may be a combination of function described here.

You've said before that the central channel is the arterial system, and the side channels are the venal system and spinal cord. Is this a Dzogchen special description?

Just from looking at them; it appears right and left channels are venal and arterial systems respectively; central channel would be the spinal cord. This would account for the interaction with the optic, vagus and phrenic nerves in the function of Ati yoga sadhana.



In human body it is about bilateral symmetry, only when visualized. But in Ati, there is no visualization of these channels.

Spinal column and nerves develop from father white element, hence they belong to the lalana system. Venous belongs to rasana system. Arterial belongs to Avadhuti system. This is more or less how it is understood in Tibetan medicine

However, there are different ways of explaining avadhuti, outer, inner secret, unique to certain Dzogchen systems.

OTOH, this is not so important -- these channels are only explained in order to differentiate the kati from them and explain that it is not a blood channel or lymphatic channel. Also the element of the kati is fire in Dzogchen, unlike other three which are considered earth (lalana), water (rasana) and air (avadhuti). Confusing, no? Also in some Dogchen texts, lalana is red, rasana is white, so even more confusing.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:43 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N


I'm sort of trippin' out about this stuff right now... very cool.

With regard to the colors. I was just noticing that perhaps the Bonpos have it right: Red-fire, blue-water, yellow-earth, green-air, and white (clear)-space.

This schema just seem to correspond more accurately to space... What do you think?


I think it is a little arbitray, I perfer space as blue because of sky. Water as white because of limpidity of water.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:In human body it is about bilateral symmetry, only when visualized. But in Ati, there is no visualization of these channels.

Spinal column and nerves develop from father white element, hence they belong to the lalana system. Venous belongs to rasana system. Arterial belongs to Avadhuti system. This is more or less how it is understood in Tibetan medicine

However, there are different ways of explaining avadhuti, outer, inner secret, unique to certain Dzogchen systems.

OTOH, this is not so important -- these channels are only explained in order to differentiate the kati from them and explain that it is not a blood channel or lymphatic channel. Also the element of the kati is fire in Dzogchen, unlike other three which are considered earth (lalana), water (rasana) and air (avadhuti). Confusing, no? Also in some Dogchen texts, lalana is red, rasana is white, so even more confusing.

N


Element kati is fire was surprising at first when I read it just now. Then I remembered someone explaining to me a Togal practitioner has to be careful, because the head can overheat, leading to injury. Which also kind of corresponds to why there is a brief Tummo instruction in Yeshe Lama. Perhaps acclimatizing the body to higher heat will condition it and therefore help to prevent this problem of overheating in the head and eyes.

But the bilateral symmetry is not just a visualization the systems are physical situated as I described.
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:25 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:In human body it is about bilateral symmetry, only when visualized. But in Ati, there is no visualization of these channels.

Spinal column and nerves develop from father white element, hence they belong to the lalana system. Venous belongs to rasana system. Arterial belongs to Avadhuti system. This is more or less how it is understood in Tibetan medicine

However, there are different ways of explaining avadhuti, outer, inner secret, unique to certain Dzogchen systems.

OTOH, this is not so important -- these channels are only explained in order to differentiate the kati from them and explain that it is not a blood channel or lymphatic channel. Also the element of the kati is fire in Dzogchen, unlike other three which are considered earth (lalana), water (rasana) and air (avadhuti). Confusing, no? Also in some Dogchen texts, lalana is red, rasana is white, so even more confusing.

N


Element kati is fire was surprising at first when I read it just now. Then I remembered someone explaining to me a Togal practitioner has to be careful, because the head can overheat, leading to injury. Which also kind of corresponds to why there is a brief Tummo instruction in Yeshe Lama. Perhaps acclimatizing the body to higher heat will condition it and therefore help to prevent this problem of overheating in the head and eyes.

But the bilateral symmetry is not just a visualization the systems are physical situated as I described.


You have to understand, there is a kind of bile in the eyes called alocaka pita -- this is the composed of the fire element. If you put to much heat in the eyes, it dries out the moist tissue and damages one's eyesight. Actually, it is important to use special eyedrops regularly to induce tearing to protect the eyes because the alocaka pita itself can dry out the eyes.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:30 pm

adinatha wrote:
But the bilateral symmetry is not just a visualization the systems are physical situated as I described.


It is well understood, at least in Tibetan medicine (which is based in Dzogchen) that the three channels do not exist in the in the way in which they are visualized, which has lead the famed doctor, Zurkhar to state "All channels of air (i.e. beating channels, arteries) are the avadhuti, all channels of blood are rasana, and all channels of water (nerves, etc.) are the lalana." This statement is in part based on the Karmapa III's zab mo nang don.

Some westerners think the central channel is the spinal column, but it is not, in general considered to be that. The spinal column, the bones, etc., all develop from the white substance of the father. The spinal column and the brain is considered part of the lalana system in general Vajrayāna.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby adinatha » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:30 pm

But the way they actually are is the arteries beating out and down are on the right, the veins returning up are on the left and the spine with movements of mind going up and down is in the middle. (perhaps I have these flipped but the point is the same). But I can see how with respect to Togal, there is the "channels others don't know about," the winds gathering in the heart and all that...
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:04 pm

adinatha wrote:But the way they actually are is the arteries beating out and down are on the right, the veins returning up are on the left and the spine with movements of mind going up and down is in the middle. (perhaps I have these flipped but the point is the same). But I can see how with respect to Togal, there is the "channels others don't know about," the winds gathering in the heart and all that...


Whatever you may like to think, but that is not how it is in fact, at least not from viewpoint of Tibetan medicine, etc.

The way it is arranged is that the aorta, etc, is the main avadhuti, the vena cava, etc. the rasana, and the spinal column, etc. is the lalana. The reason why it must be so is that lower end of the lalana and rasana is the urethra, and the lower end of the avadhuti is the rectum according to Kalacakra. Anyway, these things are not so important in Dzogchen.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:39 am

In the Yantra Yoga book, CNNR quotes Changchub Dorje as saying, "the central channel of primordial wisdom is not something material like veins and nerves, so it is best to visualize it in the way that comes most easily and naturally for you."
But studying Tibetan Medicine (with the Shang Shung Institute!), I have also heard the explanation you have given here. Is Changchub Dorje's advice purely for the purpose of maintaining a functional visualization of the subtle body, or is his understanding just more based in Dzogchen than Sowa Rigpa?
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