Electronic Dzogchen

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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:44 am

Fa Dao wrote:I dont think Astus is trying to bust anybody's chops here. I too am curious as to how this works. Something happened when I watched Rinpoche in that last transmission. I dont fully understand it and cant adequately describe it. I get the whole radio transmission thing...makes sense to me. What I want to know is how does he do that? Is it something that one learns to do or what?


No, you are merely asking. Not telling all the tantric tradition teachings are wrong (as in only one-to-one empowermnts/lungs/DI/PO/jenangs/wangs/etc. are valid not one-to-many) and scale (as in space) should be the same as dimension (time: present vs. past/future) because I have a little theory and I'll take Vajrayana/Dzogchen empowermnts/lungs/DI/etc. but will dismiss their historic systems & masters & samayas and invent my own framework and religion and avoid answering rebuttals and claim to be uniquely right. There is a huge difference that is very basic and easy to see.

As to your question on the mechanics of how a master creates his state for transmitting DI and how it works, you need to experience first being a successful recipient then progress greatly to being a successful master authorized by enlightened beings to dispense DI and even then partly know as only a fully enlightened buddha has complete omniscience on how everything is.

Wanting to reduce the process to a schemata of it's mechanics is a dead-end. As ChNNR often says: "Westerners think everything is in techniques and Tibetans don't seem to understand this and if we only extract the essence of their techniques, they are mostly ignorant of(!), then we can progress much faster than them! Because of this mistaken way of thinking, still the most realized people are the 'backward' traditional Tibetan practitioners not the 'clever advanced' westerners!" So let's stop fooling ourselves by thinking 'only I know best' and let me boil down their techniques into my funny little science. Let's instead just learn from and follow our proven gurus' instructions. Mechanics of DI (silly reduction of) = dead-end. You can not back-engineer Dharmakaya.

But there is a lot to learn and one should continue to learn a lineage's teachings from it's masters because there are reasons for the order of the teachings. For example ChNNR and other masters say the ones amongst you here who have experienced it will also help your quest, not just the master. This truth is told to boost our confidence and is basically to do with how mandalas work in Nirmanakaya and Samoghakaya as again Dharmakaya is beyond anyway. But all is lumped as one in this thread in error. Finally more powerful and faster and easier than concepts is trusting and implementing the gurus' pithy instructions.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:38 am

Fa Dao wrote:I dont think Astus is trying to bust anybody's chops here. I too am curious as to how this works. Something happened when I watched Rinpoche in that last transmission. I dont fully understand it and cant adequately describe it. I get the whole radio transmission thing...makes sense to me. What I want to know is how does he do that? Is it something that one learns to do or what?


Traditionally one is talking about the auspicious meeting between the teachers compassion and the students devotion.

/magnus
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:14 am

A successful DI is beyond causal elements of lower vehicles like compassion and devotion but effortlessly includes rightful actions for that brief time. Secondly compassion and devotion was emphasized by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche for his students that didn't get it and as fuel for those that did. He never made the basic mistake of equating that state with meritorious causalities. Thirdly he did not restrict it to any levels as himself and his root guru remained extremely devoted to enlightened gurus and deities. And he also often said his own students should look down upon less fortunate practitioners or beings suffering or those afar from dharma with compassion. Fourthly other great Dzogchen masters emphasize other secondary causal practices for those that continually don't get it or as fuel for progress for those that do, mainly the two accumulations and the purification of obstacles and obscurities. So one should not follow the amateur mistake of those reducing the state beyond causality to lower vehicles' causal teachings and instead should follow the guru's advice itself.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:46 am

username wrote:A successful DI is beyond causal elements of lower vehicles like compassion and devotion but effortlessly includes rightful actions for that brief time. Secondly compassion and devotion was emphasized by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche for his students that didn't get it and as fuel for those that did. He never made the basic mistake of equating that state with meritorious causalities. Thirdly he did not restrict it to any levels as himself and his root guru remained extremely devoted to enlightened gurus and deities. And he also often said his own students should look down upon less fortunate practitioners or beings suffering or those afar from dharma with compassion. Fourthly other great Dzogchen masters emphasize other secondary causal practices for those that continually don't get it or as fuel for progress for those that do, mainly the two accumulations and the purification of obstacles and obscurities. So one should not follow the amateur mistake of those reducing the state beyond causality to lower vehicles' causal teachings and instead should follow the guru's advice himself.


You were a personal student of Tulku Urgyen?

Were did I "equate that state with meritorious causalities"? Exact quote please.

Were did I say Tulku Urgyen restricted direct introduction to some particular level? Tulku Urgyen and his sons gave and gives direct introduction without any restrictions that I ever noticed.

Were did I reduce "the state beyond causality to lower vehicles' causal teachings"? Exact quote please.

I was talking of how direct introduction is possible quoting from my memory what the oldest son of Tulku Urgyen, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, said once. We are talking about the exact moment it happens here not about any accumulation. Try to respond to the actual posts without adding a lot of stuff that you imagine are my POV. You don't know me, have no idea what I know about Dzogchen, what my practices are and so on.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:20 am

heart wrote:
username wrote:A successful DI is beyond causal elements of lower vehicles like compassion and devotion but effortlessly includes rightful actions for that brief time. Secondly compassion and devotion was emphasized by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche for his students that didn't get it and as fuel for those that did. He never made the basic mistake of equating that state with meritorious causalities. Thirdly he did not restrict it to any levels as himself and his root guru remained extremely devoted to enlightened gurus and deities. And he also often said his own students should look down upon less fortunate practitioners or beings suffering or those afar from dharma with compassion. Fourthly other great Dzogchen masters emphasize other secondary causal practices for those that continually don't get it or as fuel for progress for those that do, mainly the two accumulations and the purification of obstacles and obscurities. So one should not follow the amateur mistake of those reducing the state beyond causality to lower vehicles' causal teachings and instead should follow the guru's advice himself.


You were a personal student of Tulku Urgyen?

Were did I "equate that state with meritorious causalities"? Exact quote please.

Were did I say Tulku Urgyen restricted direct introduction to some particular level? Tulku Urgyen and his sons gave and gives direct introduction without any restrictions that I ever noticed.

Were did I reduce "the state beyond causality to lower vehicles' causal teachings"? Exact quote please.

I was talking of how direct introduction is possible quoting from my memory what the oldest son of Tulku Urgyen, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, said once. We are talking about the exact moment it happens here not about any accumulation. Try to respond to the actual posts without adding a lot of stuff that you imagine are my POV. You don't know me, have no idea what I know about Dzogchen, what my practices are and so on.

/magnus


The minor reduction was rejected on compassion & devotion restricted to empowerment only and shown the master also looks up with devotion and student looks down with compassion elsewhere too according to TUR. As for the main reduction of DI by you, traditionally one is talking about not mistaking DI session, as asked about, with compassion and devotion, as clarified from TUR's POV, or etc. etc. causals. No need for anger. DI session includes many many noble acts including compassion and devotion but goes beyond such causalities, hence a mistake to misrepresent and reduce it so:

heart wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:I dont think Astus is trying to bust anybody's chops here. I too am curious as to how this works. Something happened when I watched Rinpoche in that last transmission. I dont fully understand it and cant adequately describe it. I get the whole radio transmission thing...makes sense to me. What I want to know is how does he do that? Is it something that one learns to do or what?


Ttraditionally one is talking about the auspicious meeting between the teachers compassion and the students devotion.

/magnus


The rest was clarifying TUR system and other alternatives too, apart from correcting your mistaken answer to his question.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:14 am

In a direct introduction, the master creates the circumstances to facilitate the arising of an experience in the student through which the student can then recognize his/her true nature. The arising of a visceral, uncontrived, unelaborated devotion in the student toward the master is an example of a major facilitator of both such an experience and such a recognition.

It seems to me that this is probably the most essential reason why the so-called tantric ngondro - and particularly the outer guru yoga section - is so often taught and practiced. It's clearly not the only possible approach to the Great Perfection, but it is a very, very useful approach for many people if practiced the right way.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:29 am

Also complete 'faith' in his ability as well as faith in our own potential to connect with our own real nature which is what it's all about in essence. Hence the distinction often made between DI and blessings as here the awakening and enlightenment is carried out by oneself which only a lineage guru can make possible. And crucially to relax and thirdly to merge with the guru's state just as he prepares prior to actual giving of DI or at least connect with or the very absolute least to wholeheartedly intend to.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:57 am

username wrote:The minor reduction was rejected on compassion & devotion restricted to empowerment only and shown the master also looks up with devotion and student looks down with compassion elsewhere too according to TUR. As for the main reduction of DI by you, traditionally one is talking about not mistaking DI session, as asked about, with compassion and devotion, as clarified from TUR's POV, or etc. etc. causals. No need for anger. DI session includes many many noble acts including compassion and devotion but goes beyond such causalities, hence a mistake to misrepresent and reduce it so:


I didn't reduce anything, I answered the question of how direct introduction can happen I didn't describe the natural state. Of course it goes beyond causality.
I don't think you know anything about Tulku Urgyen's POV, do you? :smile:

/magnus
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- Longchenpa
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:00 pm

heart wrote:
username wrote:The minor reduction was rejected on compassion & devotion restricted to empowerment only and shown the master also looks up with devotion and student looks down with compassion elsewhere too according to TUR. As for the main reduction of DI by you, traditionally one is talking about not mistaking DI session, as asked about, with compassion and devotion, as clarified from TUR's POV, or etc. etc. causals. No need for anger. DI session includes many many noble acts including compassion and devotion but goes beyond such causalities, hence a mistake to misrepresent and reduce it so:


I didn't reduce anything, I answered the question of how direct introduction can happen I didn't describe the natural state. Of course it goes beyond causality.
I don't think you know anything about Tulku Urgyen's POV, do you? :smile:

/magnus


Have a good weekend magnus.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:07 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:In a direct introduction, the master creates the circumstances to facilitate the arising of an experience in the student through which the student can then recognize his/her true nature. The arising of a visceral, uncontrived, unelaborated devotion in the student toward the master is an example of a major facilitator of both such an experience and such a recognition.

It seems to me that this is probably the most essential reason why the so-called tantric ngondro - and particularly the outer guru yoga section - is so often taught and practiced. It's clearly not the only possible approach to the Great Perfection, but it is a very, very useful approach for many people if practiced the right way.


It is possible the Ngondro helps but I think this normally happens when there is a previous karmic connection with Dzogchen and/or the Guru. I once heard at story how TUR refused giving direct introduction to a westerner that arrived in his lama clothes, that he was wearing because he done a three-year retreat, saying that he wasn't qualified to do it. Then later that day gave a whole busload of Italian tourists direct introduction without them even asking for anything but a few words about Dharma. Don't know if it is true. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:08 pm

username wrote:Have a good weekend magnus.


Sure, you to.

/magnus
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