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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:42 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
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Adhinatha wrote:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation.


Tashi delek,
The meditation in Dzogchen is to be in the Natural State, which is united with Thodgal. That is the base to experience the first Lamp with its related Visions.
I guess that would be the right following order of Trekchod and Thodgal. I know that some schools teach Trekchod and Thodgal as separate, but i did learn this as united in the Bon Dzogchen. This means that within the abiding of the Natural State the Visions are self emanated and are in that way inter related.

Best wishes
KY


Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.

N


This makes a lot of sense. I can understand why it would be explained separately to illustrate, but then in practice one would get right to it.

Namdrol wrote:
It is felt that for some people, there will be too much attachment to appearances unless they are very stable in tregcho first.


Seems like this is what the teacher is for.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:51 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Quote:
Namdrol wrote:
Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.


Tashi delek,

Wat would be the advantage of teaching Trekchod and Thodgal as separate or sequential?

Best wishes
KY



It is felt that for some people, there will be too much attachment to appearances unless they are very stable in tregcho first.


Tashi delek,

Kordo Rushen first where the firm decission is made. Trekchod is (can be) then used to abide in the Natural State where as a result the Visions appear (self appearing).
Aklso due to the 5 postures visions are experienced, but the base is abiding in the Natural State and this is the Union of Trekchod and Thodgal,
So because of the good result in Trekchod the visions appear. Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.
Sure Trekchod is the base but the visions come together self arisen, within this Natural State.

I guess one cannot have visions without a base, like here Trekchod.



best wishes
KY

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:58 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.


Visions can arise even without tregchö. This is why tregchö is so important for severing attachment.

N

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:06 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.


Visions can arise even without tregchö. This is why tregchö is so important for severing attachment.

N


Tashi delek,

Yes without the base Trekchod is no visions possible.
This because the appearing of visions is due to emptintiness aspect which is inseparable connected to the visions.
People who would pratcice only Trekchod would disppear without leaving a trace. Here is the emptineess aspect seen whereas i thought in the Thodgal is the clearness aspect like lights seen..... So i try to say that they are not as a "not union" seen Trekchod and Thodgal and so without Thodgal no visions.

People who dwell in the mood of dualistic things like attachment should return to the kordo Rushens and Semdzens etc. and set up here more herwith their base more than used as Trekchod as a remedie against attachment etc.

Best wishes
KY

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:20 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.


Visions can arise even without tregchö. This is why tregchö is so important for severing attachment.

N


Tashi delek,

Yes without the base Trekchod is no visions possible.
This because the appearing of visions is due to emptintiness aspect which is inseparable connected to the visions.
People who would pratcice only Trekchod would disppear without leaving a trace. Here is the emptineess aspect seen whereas i thought in the Thodgal is the clearness aspect like lights seen..... So i try to say that they are not as a "not union" seen Trekchod and Thodgal and so without Thodgal no visions.

People who dwell in the mood of dualistic things like attachment should return to the kordo Rushens and Semdzens etc. and set up here more herwith their base more than used as Trekchod as a remedie against attachment etc.

Best wishes
KY


Tregchod is not a remedy against attachment. Tregcho is complete freedom from all attachments.

But if one is working with for example second vision and one loses one mindfulness and becomes attached to visions, this is a big problem, and it does happen.

N

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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:32 am 
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Namdrol wrote:

Tregchod is not a remedy against attachment. Tregcho is complete freedom from all attachments.

But if one is working with for example second vision and one loses one mindfulness and becomes attached to visions, this is a big problem, and it does happen.

N

i.e. the cause of other spiritual traditions that attach to a vision and the words of a powerful god.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:28 am 
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Quote:
Namdrol wrote:
But if one is working with for example second vision and one loses one mindfulness and becomes attached to visions, this is a big problem, and it does happen.



Tashi delek,

General seen are even all visions ,seen within (ones) the Natural State as let them be for what they are.
So without attachment or " knowledge" to these expeiences.
Visions come stay and dissolve like other apects like thoughts.
The Natural State seems to be a State where everything comes out and dissolves again herein.
Attachment is here a status of dualism which likes etc. and that is to be out of the Natural State.

The Natural State is extended if one can maintain the Natural State also when one is not sitting on the Gom chen.
So when one stands up, walks, talks, and one tries to stay in that NS etc.

Best wishes
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:12 am 
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who has attained rainbow body before in written dharma texts ?

only Guru Rinpoche one person ?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:19 am 
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benchen wrote:
who has attained rainbow body before in written dharma texts ?

only Guru Rinpoche one person ?



Tashi delek,

In Bon there are many Dzogchen Masters who did attain the Rainbow Body. Last person was Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen 1859 - 1935.
But there are also in Nyingma many Dzogchen Masters who did attain the Rainbow Body.


Best wishes
KY

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:38 am 
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benchen wrote:
who has attained rainbow body before in written dharma texts ?

only Guru Rinpoche one person ?


These are only a few of the many: Vimalamitra, Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, Nyagla Pema Dundul, Changchub Dorje, Ayu Khandro, Togden Urgyen Tenzin, Khenpo Achö... But there are many, many more I can't think of at the moment.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Who are the Great Transferences?

Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra, Nyang Tenzin Zangpo, Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, Khenchen Tsewang Rigdzin, the 24 bon masters, Nyala Pema Dudul,

A quick google turned up a Dza Mura Rinpoche (4th),

We should have a complete list. Anyone have it?

It would be helpful in remembering and requesting empowerment...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:12 pm 
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At least 13 of Dudjom Lingpa's disciples did.
Several of Jigdral Yeshe Dorje's did as well--
he was himself a "partial."


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:39 pm 
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ngodrup wrote:
At least 13 of Dudjom Lingpa's disciples did.
Several of Jigdral Yeshe Dorje's did as well--
he was himself a "partial."


I'm talking Phowa Chenpo, not manifesting death. Simply disappearing into thin air. Is this consistent with the fruits of these two masters' students? I'm asking, because I don't know. My understanding was that Phowa Chenpo is extremely rare, and there should be a relatively short list. Like an all time top 50 yogis or top 100 at most.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:46 pm 
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I used to think there were only two - Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra. However from Namdrol's comments I don't know anymore. If it's possible to complete the 4th vision and nothing happens on the outside then it's impossible to know who did it except on say so and faith. (well I suppose we take Vima and Padma on faith too though)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:03 am 
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No that is the realization of the Body of Light "ja lus," an inner realization. But Phowa Chenpo is something others can verify. Suddenly the person disappears.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:41 am 
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I think completion of the 4th vision during ones life is the rainbow body of great transference - 'ja' lus 'pho ba chen po. 'ja' lus means rainbow body. Body of light is 'od kyi lus.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:13 am 
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Pero wrote:
I used to think there were only two - Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra.


Mandarava too (Phoba Chenpo), though you can't limit it to known names or known history as there are more and they work across time and space too in very unusual ways. Phoba Chenpo is very very rare and people mix up the 3 types all the time. The point is it only helps beings in certain ways, that's all. Though there are other high options too. I understand the fascination but there is in a way a 4th type and everyone has it.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:27 pm 
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I just have one question about this trekchöd and thogyal with the visions and the subtleties of light, etc. that has been discussed a little bit...

Do these practices really reveal how everything is illusory?

One of the things I struggle with sometimes is the idea that everything is just like a big dream. Theoretically and even experientially I often have no trouble with this, but then every once in a while I am amazed at the complexity, the solidity, the idea that it is all just like a big dream just really seems like bullshit. Then, for a few minutes, I sit there with these emotions of hopelessness and confusion. The only reason I ever get over these emotions is because I have never found any other idea that makes more sense (and I am a big science and philosophy geek), so after thinking about it a bit, I realize it may seem like bullshit, but it's more believable than anything else I've ever heard.

I just read the other day that each sperm has 37.5 MB of data and that a normal ejaculation represents a data transfer of 1,587.5TB ...quite an amazing amount of unreal stuff; quantifiable, no less.

So, yeah, if trekcho or togyal could experientially get me over the hump of really fully believing all experiences are like "the dream fabric of the night" (unreal), then I am going to dedicate my efforts to learning this stuff. Again, I would like to say that theoretically, it makes sense to me that nothing is inherently real; how this dream stuff is, though, is what I'd really like to know so as to never stumble over it again. I think part of the problem is that metaphors are never complete with this kind of thing; just like there is the metaphor of the crystal and the mirror to explain nature of mind, but neither is really complete I think the comparison to "a big dream" is not really complete, either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:33 am 
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padma norbu wrote:
I just have one question about this trekchöd and thogyal with the visions and the subtleties of light, etc. that has been discussed a little bit...

Do these practices really reveal how everything is illusory?

One of the things I struggle with sometimes is the idea that everything is just like a big dream. Theoretically and even experientially I often have no trouble with this, but then every once in a while I am amazed at the complexity, the solidity, the idea that it is all just like a big dream just really seems like bullshit. Then, for a few minutes, I sit there with these emotions of hopelessness and confusion. The only reason I ever get over these emotions is because I have never found any other idea that makes more sense (and I am a big science and philosophy geek), so after thinking about it a bit, I realize it may seem like bullshit, but it's more believable than anything else I've ever heard.

I just read the other day that each sperm has 37.5 MB of data and that a normal ejaculation represents a data transfer of 1,587.5TB ...quite an amazing amount of unreal stuff; quantifiable, no less.

So, yeah, if trekcho or togyal could experientially get me over the hump of really fully believing all experiences are like "the dream fabric of the night" (unreal), then I am going to dedicate my efforts to learning this stuff. Again, I would like to say that theoretically, it makes sense to me that nothing is inherently real; how this dream stuff is, though, is what I'd really like to know so as to never stumble over it again. I think part of the problem is that metaphors are never complete with this kind of thing; just like there is the metaphor of the crystal and the mirror to explain nature of mind, but neither is really complete I think the comparison to "a big dream" is not really complete, either.


Yes this is the fruit of nonconceptual wisdom. Togal works with appearances that are particularly well-suited to realizing that all is mere illusory display. But then to go one step further and imagine everything is illusory; everything is a big dream, is a big illusion. It is like conceptualizing emptiness. It is one of the most difficult obscurations to fix. Keep that in mind, because no part of rigpa is some thought, "all this is illusion."

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:11 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Yes this is the fruit of nonconceptual wisdom. Togal works with appearances that are particularly well-suited to realizing that all is mere illusory display. But then to go one step further and imagine everything is illusory; everything is a big dream, is a big illusion. It is like conceptualizing emptiness. It is one of the most difficult obscurations to fix. Keep that in mind, because no part of rigpa is some thought, "all this is illusion."


I don't want to use my own words to express anything re as far as teachings/understanding is concerned. What you are saying reminds me of something I tried to express many years ago and people did not understand what I was saying, apparently thinking I was trying to say the illusion was inherently real or something, so I steer clear of anything that hasn't been said by one of my teachers.

As Namkhai Norbu has said, everything is ultimately unreal, but we exist in time within a relative dimension and we share a karmic vision which is like a big dream; when you are in a dream, it seems very real and you have experiences and emotions just like regular life, but when you wake up you realize it was just a dream. A dream is an illusion, but we still experience it as real.

Thank you for clarification on togal. I just reread the Four Chogshag today and it's funny how little there is to that book, but some things stuck out for me, anyway. I also remembered what it was like reading this material for the first time (this and other books by ChNN) where he talks about integrating this and that and instant presence and just really a whole lot of stuff that is not actually explained in the text how to do. I suppose that is why I turned to other Dzogchen teachers like Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche etc. to fill in some of the blanks.

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