Electronic Dzogchen

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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:Astus:

You are wasting everyone's time with this question.

Dzogchen is a Vajrayana system. The Guru is indispensable.

If you want transmission, you must get it from a Guru. Live.

N


Is it a waste of time to investigate the nature of transmission? What you're saying is that "that's how it is, that's the tradition". Actually, that is an answer too and if that's all then I'm fine with it.

I've participated in Dzogchen transmission both face to face and DC's webcast, but I don't think it is relevant.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:54 pm

Astus wrote:
I've participated in Dzogchen transmission both face to face and DC's webcast, but I don't think it is relevant.



You don't think what is relevant?

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:You don't think what is relevant?


My personal relationship with Dzogchen.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:07 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You don't think what is relevant?


My personal relationship with Dzogchen.


it is very relevant. In fact it is the key to the whole discussion.

You have not understood in fact what transmission means.

You can think of it like this. You have a device, it has a plug. If it is not plugged in, even though it has all potential to function it will not function.

Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:32 pm

Namdrol wrote:Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.


Very plastic metaphor, and lineage is central in Vajrayana, I understand that. I was looking for a different kind of explanation but I can accept that it is something that doesn't exist. Thanks for the help.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:36 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.


Very plastic metaphor, and lineage is central in Vajrayana, I understand that. I was looking for a different kind of explanation but I can accept that it is something that doesn't exist. Thanks for the help.

Its not for everybody.
People have tried to give you a wide variety of explanations and metaphors etc. throughout this thread. At this point its repetitious and a bit silly.
Its starting to look like you have an aversion, rather than interest.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:53 pm

Nangwa wrote:Its not for everybody.
People have tried to give you a wide variety of explanations and metaphors etc. throughout this thread. At this point its repetitious and a bit silly.
Its starting to look like you have an aversion, rather than interest.


No aversion, I was simply looking a different kind of explanation. From the repetition it is clear there isn't such. No result is still a result. :)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:13 pm

Although I'm not so sure about the Aro gTer lineage (seems sketchy, but I don't want to badmouth it, either), the explanation there made a lot of sense to me. As Namdrol said, you're in the same state. How do you get in the same state? The guru introduces a little shock which momentarily clears your mind. In that moment the guru is transmitting and you are receiving. The Aro site compared it to mirrors reflecting. Well, what state would you both be in? The state of the guru is what is being transmitted and that state is said to be like a mirror. If two people are in the "state of the mirror" at the same time and mirror #1 is transmitting to mirror #2, then the comparison to 2 mirrors reflecting makes some sense. How could you put that on CD or DVD?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:21 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.


Very plastic metaphor, and lineage is central in Vajrayana, I understand that. I was looking for a different kind of explanation but I can accept that it is something that doesn't exist. Thanks for the help.



ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:27 pm

Namdrol wrote:ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.


And if we use that example it's the radiowave I don't really see.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:50 pm

padma norbu wrote:Although I'm not so sure about the Aro gTer lineage (seems sketchy, but I don't want to badmouth it, either), the explanation there made a lot of sense to me. As Namdrol said, you're in the same state. How do you get in the same state? The guru introduces a little shock which momentarily clears your mind. In that moment the guru is transmitting and you are receiving. The Aro site compared it to mirrors reflecting. Well, what state would you both be in? The state of the guru is what is being transmitted and that state is said to be like a mirror. If two people are in the "state of the mirror" at the same time and mirror #1 is transmitting to mirror #2, then the comparison to 2 mirrors reflecting makes some sense. How could you put that on CD or DVD?


Exactly, it's like osmosis.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:52 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.


And if we use that example it's the radiowave I don't really see.


I think if you want to understand directly, you have to experience it directly and see from within you, what the difference in power is between a CD and a living transmission happening globally at the same time for everyone involved.

I would think it obvious, but I guess not?
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:55 pm

If you have the great good benefit and accumulated merit to experience the same level of power and awakening through a CD like you do through a live transmission, than that's fabulous! That's something else though... that has nothing to do with the CD, that has to do with you.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:37 am

It is not wise to mix unscientific theories at pre-highschhool level, juvenile fantasies, with self-confessed personal deviated theories of tantras' workings, again overtly simplistic, and then claim oneself a genius above the millions of tantrics in history and hubreds of truly genius historic panditas and say only I got the truth!

And then avoid points put to one and return to one's dismissed simplistic fantasy funny theories 'again' when feeling safe and claiming I have discovered the TRUTH and rumbled you all and all the historic panditas. Absurd self delusional fantasies.

Finally taking Vajrayana empowerments in a group and assuming one didn't(!), as it has to be one-to-one and other similar simplistic wishfull thinkings, are unwise and dangerous as one has major Samaya commitments regardless of daydreamings.

If one needs certain made-up childish theories and behavioral procedures to escape the truth, emptiness etc., then one should continue in such widespread self deceptions as many do without committing oneself to the Samayas of Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:40 am

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.


And if we use that example it's the radiowave I don't really see.



You have to be tuned to the right channel.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:48 am

username wrote:
Thirdly I explained how someone in a courtyard at the back of thousands getting lungs from speakers without seeing the lama inside the packed temple is no different than listening on a computer speaker at the same time. Again you provide no logical reason why the two are different.


My wife actually had a better experience of transmission from a live webcast in Kundroling in NYC with a small group of people, while Rinpoche was on the other side of the world, than she did with him sitting right in front of her in a big church in Toronto where she couldn't look at him due to all the heads in the way and couldn't really hear him due to the clamoring of kids surrounding her in the back of the hall.

Go figure! She said she got nothing from the living presence in the same room, but got the rigpa transmission through webcast sometime later because she could see him and hear him clearly.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:58 am

I dont think Astus is trying to bust anybody's chops here. I too am curious as to how this works. Something happened when I watched Rinpoche in that last transmission. I dont fully understand it and cant adequately describe it. I get the whole radio transmission thing...makes sense to me. What I want to know is how does he do that? Is it something that one learns to do or what?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:37 am

Fa Dao wrote:I dont think Astus is trying to bust anybody's chops here. I too am curious as to how this works. Something happened when I watched Rinpoche in that last transmission. I dont fully understand it and cant adequately describe it. I get the whole radio transmission thing...makes sense to me. What I want to know is how does he do that? Is it something that one learns to do or what?


Keep in mind that he's also asking his entire enlightened lineage beyond body to be present during his transmission too, so he's not alone... :alien: Just kidding, don't take the alien joke too seriously, even though... LOL!!

Really, he's not doing this alone. Which is why it's important to have lineage, as it's not only the lineage Master giving the transmission, but the energy of an entire retinue of enlightened beings. Which is part of some aspects of the visualizations you received in the lungs.

Right? This is understood, yes?
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:01 am

Vajrahridaya wrote:Really, he's not doing this alone. Which is why it's important to have lineage, as it's not only the lineage Master giving the transmission, but the energy of an entire retinue of enlightened beings. Which is part of some aspects of the visualizations you received in the lungs.

Right? This is understood, yes?


I have been told or heard in one of his teachings (can't remember which) that we should realize we are in the presence of many enlightened beings when we sing the song of the vajra, too. I try to remember that and when I really seem to feel it, I have a different experience for sure. Sometimes, I sing SOV and unfortunately, my mind becomes distracted with random daily bs but I have learned the song well enough to keep singing on autopilot. It's kind of like if you have ever found yourself at the end of a page you just read, but none of it registered because you were daydreaming. It sucks because halfway through the song, it's not like I want to abandon and start over. Sometimes I just have to sing it twice when I was expecting only once.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:27 am

padma norbu wrote:
Vajrahridaya wrote:Really, he's not doing this alone. Which is why it's important to have lineage, as it's not only the lineage Master giving the transmission, but the energy of an entire retinue of enlightened beings. Which is part of some aspects of the visualizations you received in the lungs.

Right? This is understood, yes?


I have been told or heard in one of his teachings (can't remember which) that we should realize we are in the presence of many enlightened beings when we sing the song of the vajra, too. I try to remember that and when I really seem to feel it, I have a different experience for sure. Sometimes, I sing SOV and unfortunately, my mind becomes distracted with random daily bs but I have learned the song well enough to keep singing on autopilot. It's kind of like if you have ever found yourself at the end of a page you just read, but none of it registered because you were daydreaming. It sucks because halfway through the song, it's not like I want to abandon and start over. Sometimes I just have to sing it twice when I was expecting only once.


Yup, I know the feeling. :thinking: Sometimes I'll even be feeling one of the Jhanas (I guess?? even though you're not supposed to have thought in the Jhana??) while singing it, but thoughts will still arise about my daily BS, so then I figure, I'm integrating the SOV, my thoughts about my daily BS and the bliss of whatever Jhana with the presence of the enlightened beings! At least I hope so, though yes, when I see that there is too much BS happening I work on calming the BS down a bit... :meditate: We are not simple beings, are we? :coffee:
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