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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 2:59 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Related question: why is it that Dzogchen seems to be a magnet for these sorts of discourses? or rather: how is it that Dzogchen-y discourse gets drawn into this stuff?


I can't speak for everyone who ever started such a discourse, but the reasons I brought up might have something to do with it.


I'm sure that's part of it.

What isn't clear enough from my comment above is that I'm interested in the use to which the term "Dzogchen" and its way of expression are put by non-Buddhists. Think of Ken Wilber's book _One Taste_, for instance. That's the Aloha Amigo!.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:15 pm 
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I forgot about Ken Wilber. Yeah, he's mixing everything up too, isn't he?

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:03 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
I forgot about Ken Wilber. Yeah, he's mixing everything up too, isn't he?


He's shilling his own stuff under the pretense of mixing it up. And making a total mess of it.

http://www.integralworld.net/meyerhoff-ba-toc.html

I'm not sure why it's Dzogchen that gets named in these situations, but that may be trending off topic so...

:focus:

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:11 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
1. In Dzogchen we visualize the guru as all our teachers. I have asked numerous times if this means people from other traditions as well and the answer I invariably get is: "ALLLL teachers."


it means all teachers and all knowledge, not just Buddhist knowledge.

N

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
1. In Dzogchen we visualize the guru as all our teachers. I have asked numerous times if this means people from other traditions as well and the answer I invariably get is: "ALLLL teachers."


it means all teachers and all knowledge, not just Buddhist knowledge.


You jokester you.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:32 pm 
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My teacher (mahamudra tradition) taught me to see everything as my teacher. This is because everything can be taken on as part of one's path if one has a foundation of clear understanding which makes this possible. So, if somebody yells at you you can learn something from that, learn from how you react to that and so forth. You can look at your own mind, you can see that the other person is suffering, see how it is all without any lasting substance, and so on. The more you practice, the more you learn. Every situation gives one the opportunity to practice and learn.

This isn't the same as mixing tarot cards with dharma or whatever. You can get a lot of insights from various traditions, as I have mentioned, forgiveness. But it has to do more with applying what you understand from these traditions in the context of one's dharma practice, not just stirring them all in together.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
1. In Dzogchen we visualize the guru as all our teachers. I have asked numerous times if this means people from other traditions as well and the answer I invariably get is: "ALLLL teachers."


it means all teachers and all knowledge, not just Buddhist knowledge.


You jokester you.


What makes you think he's joking?



PadmaVonSamba wrote:
My teacher (mahamudra tradition) taught me to see everything as my teacher. This is because everything can be taken on as part of one's path if one has a foundation of clear understanding which makes this possible.


I have also been taught that from Lama Tsering Everest. It was also something I carried over in my thought process from previous new-agey stuff. When I read about Mahammudra, how everything is a symbol of itself and that Mahammudra is the great all-encompassing symbol, I was surprised because it reminded me of this epiphany I had once walking down the street as a Qabalist practitioner in which you are supposed to see "every interaction as a personal dealing with God" and there was just a lot of talk about symbols in general and how they represent and affect different aspects of your awareness, how everything is ultimately unreal, but real phenomena nevertheless. Overall, it was similar in many ways to Buddhist teaching (except the God part, but the "God" they were talking about was abstract indeed) and, in fact, they frequently mentioned Buddha, and the illusion of samsara. So, I was walking down the sidewalk considering all the multiplicity of forms and thinking that, "Well, there is literally nothing I can think of that isn't something I've already experienced... like, all the mythical beings are just a composite of other animals (eg. Abraxas has a rooster head and snake feet)... and I was considering the fact that I couldn't really imagine anything that didn't already exist and that I had experienced in some way, whether gas, plant, mineral, animal, emotion, whatever... and I was looking at a tree and it suddenly occurred to me that it was a symbol of itself. I don't know any other way to put it, but it's appearance was a manifestation of the idea of tree-ness.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:00 pm 
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There is a view that what the Buddha explained is an objective truth, thus, like a rock in the road, it is something that more than one person is likely to stumble upon. This doesn't mean that all teachings on everything are the same of course. Many rivers can lead to the same ocean.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:07 pm 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
There is a view that what the Buddha explained is an objective truth, thus, like a rock in the road, it is something that more than one person is likely to stumble upon. This doesn't mean that all teachings on everything are the same of course. Many rivers can lead to the same ocean.

Yeah, I never said they were and I don't think they are. That is partially why I made this thread, actually. Seems somewhat common these days to mix it all up. I am somewhat surprised to see Snow Lion selling products by a person with a glowing description of her work as "a bridge between eastern and western expressions of ancient wisdom" and more surprised that Robert Thurman is publicly stating on the record in a DVD that Buddhism and Hinduism are "really talking about the same thing." On the other hand, I don't like to see condemnation of people who happen to be involved in Rosicrucianism, for example. As if you couldn't be involved in both the Rosicrucian Order and Dzogchen Community and have experience of rigpa. I'm sure you can. I doubt Neal J. Pollock's words are useless simply because he is involved in Rosicrucianism. I have found his reviews on Amazon very helpful in choosing books and he hasn't let me down, actually.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:48 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
it means all teachers and all knowledge, not just Buddhist knowledge.


You jokester you.


What makes you think he's joking?


It contradicts our teachers instructions, as far as I've understood them anyway, and it doesn't really make much sense.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:03 pm 
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I don't think he was joking. Like I said, whenever I have asked the question, the response I invariably received was "ALLLL your teachers" and "Namkhai Norbu always says ALL your teachers." Also, Dzogchen is not limited by Buddhism.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:26 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
I don't think he was joking. Like I said, whenever I have asked the question, the response I invariably received was "ALLLL your teachers" and "Namkhai Norbu always says ALL your teachers."

No, he doesn't say that. You can also look in the Precious Vase about it.

Quote:
Also, Dzogchen is not limited by Buddhism.

You better not let Namdrol see this. :rolling:

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:29 pm 
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"I can't get with any religion that advertises in Popular Mechanics." -Woody Allen, about Rosicrucians (in the film Annie Hall)

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:41 pm 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
"I can't get with any religion that advertises in Popular Mechanics." -Woody Allen, about Rosicrucians (in the film Annie Hall)

I remember that!
I'm not a big fan of them, btw. Not even close. I work around the corner from their HQ and not once have I been tempted to go in.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Pero wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I don't think he was joking. Like I said, whenever I have asked the question, the response I invariably received was "ALLLL your teachers" and "Namkhai Norbu always says ALL your teachers."

No, he doesn't say that. You can also look in the Precious Vase about it.


That is the answer I received. I'm not saying he did say it, I'm saying that's what I've been told by others that 'he always says'.

Pero wrote:
Quote:
Also, Dzogchen is not limited by Buddhism.

You better not let Namdrol see this. :rolling:


Hope he does. I'd be interested in weighing his comments vs. the remarks ChNN made during a retreat I attended of which I have a recording on CD. Can't reproduce ChNN's statements here, obviously, because we don't discuss retreat outside of retreat, but I can compare to whatever Namdrol has to say and perhaps learn something new.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Actually, I've already read his comments here:
http://www.atikosha.org/2011/01/dzogche ... dhism.html

And I don't disagree with any of it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:55 pm 
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padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I don't think he was joking. Like I said, whenever I have asked the question, the response I invariably received was "ALLLL your teachers" and "Namkhai Norbu always says ALL your teachers."

No, he doesn't say that. You can also look in the Precious Vase about it.


That is the answer I received. I'm not saying he did say it, I'm saying that's what I've been told by others that 'he always says'.


"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:13 pm 
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Pero wrote:
"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.


Well, you're opinion is on the record, no doubt about that. I'm just relaying the response I've received from others. I've asked probably 4 different people in person because each time I asked, I wasn't sure I was clear enough what I was asking. I think the last time I made a joke about my 6th grade math teacher, actually. BTW, to me this is a thoroughly unimportant issue, actually, because as I explained it's a rather abstract feeling moment for me.

Let's see if Namdrol reappears and confirms he was joking.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Pero wrote:

It contradicts our teachers instructions, as far as I've understood them anyway, and it doesn't really make much sense.


Hi Pero:

it is what ChNN has said, many times.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Pero wrote:

"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.



It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.

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