Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 10:43 am

alpha wrote:Could someone explain or give some details about Santi Maha Sangha Program?
There is not much detail out there about how one goes about joining,about whether you have to go to courses or learn it from books?


The base you can learn from the book "The Precious Vase". Or I should say try learning since everything may not be so easy to understand. There are courses on it given by SMS teachers but it's not mandatory to attend. There is one exam to pass after each level, the location is not always same and it's about two times a year I think. For the exam you have to apply two or so months before the exam by filling out a form, it should be on Merigar website. For each level it's necessary to do some karma yoga too.
After the exam there are teachings and empowerment on the next level from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, this you have to attend. Don't know how much it costs. Next to learning intellectually you have to complete some practices for each level. There is the base level plus nine levels after that. Rinpoche hasn't taught more than the 4th level so far.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Tue May 31, 2011 11:17 am

i just came across some pdf documents where rinpoche explains the attiutde one should have when embarking on the programme .It also talks about karma yoga and how this kind of involvement shows basically how much one is interested in DC...any much more..

I understand that the training is split into 3 levels ( with 3 subsequent levels each)which would correspond to semde longde and mengagde...

You say that rinpoche didnt go beyond level 4 yet.I guess that would correspond to semde.
Is it because people are not qualified enough to understand the levels beyond 4 or is it purely because it takes a long time to teach all 9 levels?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 11:29 am

alpha wrote:You say that rinpoche didnt go beyond level 4 yet.I guess that would correspond to semde.

No, that's the first level of Longde.

Is it because people are not qualified enough to understand the levels beyond 4 or is it purely because it takes a long time to teach all 9 levels?

I don't really know but I think it has to do with the required completed practices more than anything. People said back on E-Sangha that at level 4 the practices are so demanding it basically means a choice between your work and personal retreat. The advice if you can't do the required amount in one retreat is that you do some every day until you accumulate the equivalent. However that takes a lot longer than if you just go into retreat, for example if you have to dedicate one week to a practice, four tuns a day, which in DC are two hours, then if you can only do one tun per day that means you will complete the practice in 28 days instead of one week.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Tue May 31, 2011 11:43 am

well ..it seems that from a certain level upwards you have to make a choice between worldly life and a life dedicated to practice...and retreat....
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Tue May 31, 2011 2:48 pm

I don't quite understand that. I thought we got everything through the webcasts and that we should practice as much as we can, but integration is the key point.

How come then that intensive retreats are necessary after the 3rd level and that no one even went beyond 3rd of 4th level? I ask this qenuinely and not to be annoying.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 2:51 pm

Clarence wrote:I don't quite understand that. I thought we got everything through the webcasts and that we should practice as much as we can, but integration is the key point.

How come then that intensive retreats are necessary after the 3rd level and that no one even went beyond 3rd of 4th level? I ask this qenuinely and not to be annoying.

I don't understand what you're asking. It's not mandatory to follow SMS program.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Tue May 31, 2011 2:55 pm

Pero wrote:I don't understand what you're asking. It's not mandatory to follow SMS program.


Aha, got that now.

So, one can get all the teachings without following the SMS program? I guess that is where my confusion comes from. SMS program is Semde, Longde and Menngakde, so why does the program exist if one can receive all the teachings without going through it?

Hope that helps,
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 3:06 pm

Clarence wrote:So, one can get all the teachings without following the SMS program? I guess that is where my confusion comes from. SMS program is Semde, Longde and Menngakde, so why does the program exist if one can receive all the teachings without going through it?

Yes you can get everything in a sense. In a sense because if you don't follow the program and pass the requirements then you can't attend the training of the next level or read the literature of that level. But Rinpoche gives teachings on Semde, Longde and Mengagde outside of the SMS program anyway. So in other words, you might not receive exactly the same teachings but you still receive everything you need without following SMS.
I think it's also more focused on studying kama teachings, I'm not sure. Perhaps Namdrol could say a bit more since he passed some levels of SMS if I remember right.

Originally Rinpoche created SMS for people who wanted to teach in the future. However he noticed that the understanding of the teachings by his students wasn't so good so he changed SMS so that everyone could follow it not just those who want to teach. Now there is some extra training for teachers.
Rinpoche doesn't require anyone to follow SMS, but he has advised many times that everyone should at least try to study the base of SMS - The Precious Vase.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Tue May 31, 2011 3:20 pm

Thanks Pero.

I would like to know what the differences are once you go higher up the levels. So, if anyone knows and wants to share, please feel free...

Best,
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dorje63 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:42 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Dorje63 wrote:Thanks, everyone. :smile: I recently signed up for Tsegyalgar East email list and will join asap so that I may access the webcasts. In the interim, I'm reading Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State again. :thumbsup:


Just an fyi, you can access the open webcasts while they're live even before becoming a member; also, if you're unable to pay the membership dues in one lump sum, you can make payments. Plus, for people who make under $1000 a month, a reduced annual membership of $70 is available if needed.


Thanks, PR. I'm assuming then that one may access live webcast simply by writing webcast team at the email address Namdrol posted?

I'm looking forward to learning more. Thanks again, everyone. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:51 pm

Dorje63 wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Dorje63 wrote:Thanks, everyone. :smile: I recently signed up for Tsegyalgar East email list and will join asap so that I may access the webcasts. In the interim, I'm reading Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State again. :thumbsup:


Just an fyi, you can access the open webcasts while they're live even before becoming a member; also, if you're unable to pay the membership dues in one lump sum, you can make payments. Plus, for people who make under $1000 a month, a reduced annual membership of $70 is available if needed.


Thanks, PR. I'm assuming then that one may access live webcast simply by writing webcast team at the email address Namdrol posted?

I'm looking forward to learning more. Thanks again, everyone. :smile:

No, you don't have to write anything to them to attend a webcast. You write to them if you want to receive notifications on upcoming webcasts and if you're a member of DC to receive your username and password for the replays or for closed webcasts.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby sherabpa » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:10 am

Can someone tell me what happened to the thread about Dzogchen and Paltrul Rinpoche/Milarepa? It seems to have been deleted.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Tara » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:34 pm

sherabpa wrote:Can someone tell me what happened to the thread about Dzogchen and Paltrul Rinpoche/Milarepa? It seems to have been deleted.


The topic was removed because of several posts containing personal attacks/remarks, going against the current ToS, in particular #1
1. All members are responsible for their own Right Speech

Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions....
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

Regards,
rt
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Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby sherabpa » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:13 pm

rainbowtara wrote:
sherabpa wrote:Can someone tell me what happened to the thread about Dzogchen and Paltrul Rinpoche/Milarepa? It seems to have been deleted.


The topic was removed because of several posts containing personal attacks/remarks, going against the current ToS, in particular #1
1. All members are responsible for their own Right Speech

Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions....
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

Regards,
rt


I am sorry to hear people behaved in that way. It is a shame because the discussion was interesting. I must admit I was a little surprised when some members started getting quite angry as a result of mentioning Paltrul Rinpoche's views on ngondro practice.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:22 pm

sherabpa wrote:
I am sorry to hear people behaved in that way. It is a shame because the discussion was interesting. I must admit I was a little surprised when some members started getting quite angry as a result of mentioning Paltrul Rinpoche's views on ngondro practice.



No one was angry because of Patrul Rinpoche's point of view. Some people might have been annoyed because of how you presented Patrul Rinpoche POV.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby sherabpa » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:36 am

Namdrol wrote:
sherabpa wrote:No one was angry because of Patrul Rinpoche's point of view. Some people might have been annoyed because of how you presented Patrul Rinpoche POV.


Please can you explain the distinction? I'm not aware I added to or subtracted from Paltrul Rinpoche's advice. On the whole I merely quoted him.

However I understand this topic is sensitive, and I don't want to be accused of attacking anyone and nor do I intend to violate the rules of the forum, so if there is any danger of that please just let me know and I will behave accordingly. I would like to understand the acceptable parameters of debate here.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:02 pm

sherabpa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
sherabpa wrote:No one was angry because of Patrul Rinpoche's point of view. Some people might have been annoyed because of how you presented Patrul Rinpoche POV.


Please can you explain the distinction? I'm not aware I added to or subtracted from Paltrul Rinpoche's advice. On the whole I merely quoted him.

However I understand this topic is sensitive, and I don't want to be accused of attacking anyone and nor do I intend to violate the rules of the forum, so if there is any danger of that please just let me know and I will behave accordingly. I would like to understand the acceptable parameters of debate here.



You presented PR as a definitive authority. He is not. The only definitive authority in Dzogchen is one's own guru.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby pemachophel » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:20 pm

Full Stop.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby sherabpa » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:13 am

Namdrol wrote:You presented PR as a definitive authority. He is not. The only definitive authority in Dzogchen is one's own guru.
N


Is that a particularity of dzogchen or does it apply to dharma in general? Because in general, my understanding of authority in dharma is that it derives from scriptures and reasoning.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:19 pm

sherabpa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You presented PR as a definitive authority. He is not. The only definitive authority in Dzogchen is one's own guru.
N


Is that a particularity of dzogchen or does it apply to dharma in general? Because in general, my understanding of authority in dharma is that it derives from scriptures and reasoning.



Not in Vajrayāna. In Vajrayāna, the authority is one's guru.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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