How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

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How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 3:17 pm

How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen? For example as in "self-originated primordial wisdom".
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Pero » Tue May 24, 2011 3:45 pm

Kunjed Gyalpo:
Self-originated means arising without causes and conditions.

Commentary by Khenpo Zhenphen Oser:
"Self-originated" means the arising or manifesting of the unceasing tsal energy of Pure Perfect Presence of primordially self-originated uncompounded rigpa without the new creation of any causes and conditions.

And from the same commentary elsewhere:
Garab Dorje said: "Self-originated, wisdom arises without causes and conditions in clarity without obstruction."

This is from Jim Valby's translation of the commentary on Kunjed Gyalpo. I recommend it. I do wonder if this explanation differs any throughout the three series.

Also while looking for the precise quote I had the thought that it's kind of funny how the three series of Dzogchen are considered something separate and then when you look at this commentary it's explained by quoting quite a lot of manngagde, or when you look at Longchenpa's Choying Dzod it's explained by quoting quite a lot of Semde (Kunjed Gyalpo).
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 3:59 pm

Thanks Pero.

How are the definitions for "self-originated" explained in terms of dependent origination? I may be misreading it, but it seems to go against dependent origination if for example, "X" arises without causes and conditions.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 4:15 pm

"But, like a burnt seed, since a nonexistent result does not come about from a nonexistent cause, cause and effect do not exist."
Dependent origination In Dzogchen tradition is considered illusory.
Even Madhyamikas state that causation must be regarded as a merely conventional truth.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby muni » Tue May 24, 2011 4:29 pm

Mirrors' reflection cannot be taken apart from the mirror in a box.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 4:29 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:"But, like a burnt seed, since a nonexistent result does not come about from a nonexistent cause, cause and effect do not exist."
Dependent origination In Dzogchen tradition is considered illusory.
Even Madhyamikas state that causation must be regarded as a merely conventional truth.


Hi Dechen,

Are you saying there are no relative notions in Dzogchen and that everything is spoken of in the absolute?
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 4:44 pm

I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction. There are relative notions for the practitioner. Conventional reality has cause and effect. What are the causes of an apple? There are causes, primary and secondary. Yet, ultimately there are no such things. What are the causes of your situation? What practice should you do, with your mind, to help getting yourself in a better situation to perform contemplation, for instance? If we remove hindrances, we are talking about relative notions. But all these causes and effects are related to the conventional. If we speak about the conventional, we speak about causes and effects. Dzogchen is a teaching beyond cause and effect. If you are introduced to your real nature and remain in it, then we don't speak of causes and condition related to your real nature, completely pure from the very beginning. We can talk about relative notions relative to your hindrances to remain in contemplation.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 4:59 pm

See what Pero quoted:

"Self-originated" means the arising or manifesting of the unceasing tsal energy of Pure Perfect Presence of primordially self-originated uncompounded rigpa without the new creation of any causes and conditions.

The Base is essentially empty, yet its nature is to manifest and it does so as energy. This energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror.
Are you familiar with the definitions of Dang, Rolpa and Tsal, how this energy manifests?
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 5:22 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction. There are relative notions for the practitioner. Conventional reality has cause and effect. What are the causes of an apple? There are causes, primary and secondary. Yet, ultimately there are no such things. What are the causes of your situation? What practice should you do, with your mind, to help getting yourself in a better situation to perform contemplation, for instance? If we remove hindrances, we are talking about relative notions. But all these causes and effects are related to the conventional. If we speak about the conventional, we speak about causes and effects. Dzogchen is a teaching beyond cause and effect. If you are introduced to your real nature and remain in it, then we don't speak of causes and condition related to your real nature, completely pure from the very beginning. We can talk about relative notions relative to your hindrances to remain in contemplation.


I understand what you're saying. To get more granular, what I'm asking is how dependent origination functions on a relative level.

For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating". Mantras in Vajrayana are dependently originated. So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 24, 2011 5:34 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating"...So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?


They arise directly from the sound of dharmatā. For example, song of the vajra is the dgongs pa, samati i.e. transcendence or realization of Samantabhadra.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 6:08 pm

I wouldn't know how to answer that question, a good question btw. Gladly Namdrol was around and there you have it. :smile:
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 6:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating"...So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?


They arise directly from the sound of dharmatā. For example, song of the vajra is the dgongs pa, samati i.e. transcendence or realization of Samantabhadra.


Thanks Namdrol. Do you know why this differs in Sarma lineages?
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 6:15 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
I understand what you're saying. To get more granular, what I'm asking is how dependent origination functions on a relative level.

I don't understand exactly what you are asking. How it functions on a relative level? It only functions at a relative level. Is it the process that is bothering you? :smile:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating". Mantras in Vajrayana are dependently originated. So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?

Namdrol answered already (luckily enough, because I wouldn't know how as I said).
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 6:24 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't understand exactly what you are asking. How it functions on a relative level? It only functions at a relative level.


You needed to read my sentence after..."For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices.."

Is it the process that is bothering you?


The explanation for why a mantra is conditioned or not is of great personal interest to me.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 24, 2011 6:25 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating"...So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?


They arise directly from the sound of dharmatā. For example, song of the vajra is the dgongs pa, samati i.e. transcendence or realization of Samantabhadra.


Thanks Namdrol. Do you know why this differs in Sarma lineages?


Mantras in sarma lineages are either invocations of a samboghakāya dimension, like for example the Hevajra mantra, or action mantras.

Dzogchen mantras are not invocations nor are they for actions. They are a direct means of being in in one's primordial state.

N
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 24, 2011 6:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:Mantras in sarma lineages are either invocations of a samboghakāya dimension, like for example the Hevajra mantra, or action mantras.

Dzogchen mantras are not invocations nor are they for actions. They are a direct means of being in in one's primordial state.

N


Ah, very interesting. Thanks!
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Pero » Tue May 24, 2011 6:34 pm

mr. gordo wrote:How are the definitions for "self-originated" explained in terms of dependent origination? I may be misreading it, but it seems to go against dependent origination if for example, "X" arises without causes and conditions.


Could you clarify this Namdrol?
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby muni » Tue May 24, 2011 6:46 pm

Some more metaphor expressions of 'dependence': no separation in waves and sea, light and the flame, sunbeams and sun, moon in water.

totality as play of purity.
Last edited by muni on Tue May 24, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 24, 2011 7:02 pm

Pero wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:How are the definitions for "self-originated" explained in terms of dependent origination? I may be misreading it, but it seems to go against dependent origination if for example, "X" arises without causes and conditions.


Could you clarify this Namdrol?


Self-originated here is referring the dharmakāya. It is not dependently originated. The term svayambhujñāna, self-originated wisdom )self-originated wisdom), also means a wisdom that comes from your own state, that cannot be created, cannot be shown to you, and comes from oneself.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 24, 2011 7:07 pm

mr. gordo wrote:You needed to read my sentence after..."For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices.."

:thumbsup:


The explanation for why a mantra is conditioned or not is of great personal interest to me.

OK then. I'm glad you have it covered. :smile:
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