Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun May 22, 2011 5:28 am

Here is a link referencing meditation and mixed martial arts..cage fighting.http://www.articlesbase.com/martial-arts-articles/why-meditation-is-powerful-for-mixed-martial-arts-mma-fighters-our-3-top-tips-2780255.html. At least one mixed martial arts current champion wihin his weight class uses meditation as a regular daily training regiment. This is not unusual. Thai kick boxers though they do not normally meditate actually do their fighting within a Buddhist religious context (to my dim recollection).

The US military are strictly prohibited from torture. Unofficially as in the Mideast, occasionally individuals or even rarely groups may torture privately on their own, but not at the behest of the military. Inappropriate and illegal as the Abugrab convictions attested to.

The prefered mode of torture at the behest of the other governmental intelligence services that are not military(spooks) is the process called extraordinary rendition(since pres Clinton). Individuals are simply moved to other countries that may torture and have specific intelligence requirements which match ours in a specific, or with a specific individual. Obama immediately stopped the process publically but left a loophole of sorts which allow for the renditions to stil occur. I personally surmise they still are. One canadian citizen received a considerabla amount of money subsequent to litigation from the canadian governments complicity in the program. His suit in the US was thrown out of court to my recollection as its pursual would involve the release of secret information. Many of the countries now involved in the revolutions in the mid east are the countries which participated greatly in the rendition program.

Informally some people refered to it this way....you want a easy bit of torture but reasonable....you send them to egypt. YOu want them tortured and never to appear again...send them to Syria. Various gradients of this thing depending upon need. Interestingly many of the participants are publically at least on a less than favorable status publically at least with the US. Funny hearing public rhetoric against Syria by the politicians while the spooks are working with them on torturing various individuals. Europe had quite a furor over this thing and Italy actually indited about 10 or so CIA spooks. Curiously then arose much US media on the italian judiciary being suspect, (it was the italian judiciary who was the mover on the inditements). One perhaps considered inncoent female murderer, but a US citizen, was the vehcle in this spook push back (which is what I take it absolutely to be). That's how spooks work...indirectly for effect. Indite our people through your judiciary... we will show your judiciary shortcomings for our public to see. Tit for tat.

The spooks help reporters by telling them normally secret governmental things for publications(sometimes with intention).
The journalists being then friends are occasionally "asked" to write certain things that benefit the spooks agenda. A problem with the Italian judiciary or its actions on our agents...you run a story in US media on how the Italian judiciary is apparently just jailing innocent americans for no good reason..tit for tat. The reporter who initiates the story to help the spooks, receives information(secret classified and exclusive) about things which are newsworthy. So the reporter is helped by the spooks.

But absolutely right as the above poster depicts.....US military has in its manual of operations wording which prohibits torture. And it is followed. Spooks their members and agenda are not military. Occasional crossovers...but not a whole lot. Spooks tortureing actually hurts the military. Opponants are much more inclinded to fight to the death knowing they will be tortured. Rappor actually works much much better in this thing of information retrieval.

The government spooks.... are hopeless corrupt, bad at their job, inept bafoons, who like as not do (though rarely) torture and send far more to be tortured by others. Torture is part and purview of peoples in intelligence services who really don''t what they are doing, political appointments perhaps...rank amateurs. It doesn't work. If you know what you are doing as the above poster mentions there is no need for that thing.

Interestingly the Chicago police force did actually employ torture for many years. One senior official was convicted of related charges not all that long ago.
Many innocents jailed as result.

REgardless of your role in the military..... its roll is to kill to protect. As a Buddhist I would join such a thing in any capacity only if absolutely no other option was available for employment. Such could present possibly so I wouldn't summarily discount it, but avoid it if possible I would do. In these hard economic times it may be a only option for some.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby lukejmo » Sun May 22, 2011 8:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
The main point is whether you actually agree with the goals that a military force has in mind. From a Buddhist POV, if you do, you share in all the negative actions of the whole army. This is very well detailed in the karma chapter in the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam.

N


Since I don't have the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam handy at the moment, could you cite that? What is the implication of this? I think I've heard of this group-karma thing, and I always wondered about what the exact requirements were. What about tax-payers? What about people who are in the military and disagree? I could see how if you had a mob of people running around that killed someone, sure, that'd be easy to figure out.

If some one sees the goal of a military as just keeping the peace and protecting people (naive, sure) what then?
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon May 23, 2011 12:02 am

lukejmo

I have checked this thread and early on you are abscribing things to me by quote which are not written by me. Check your first post which has a quotation attributed to me, but if you read it is actually a statement Luke makes.

I don't know how or why but it may be confusing things a bit. It is not personally important but if you read my posts I then establish logically inconsistant positions.

I would rather approach a discussion with real issues and real subjects....not responding to things quoted to be me but are not.
It is impossible to discuss things in that fashion.

Here is the quote....
ronnewmexico wrote:
But intelligence officers usually interrogate prisoners and may use torture on them (Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, etc.). I don't think it's possible for an ethical person to be an intelligence officer in the military over a long period of time. Most ethical people would probably quit the job once they see what's actually going on.
Psychological warfare is all about deception and that creates bad karma.

Luke states that in response to my statement the intelligence service may be a option one should consider.
Luke says that not me.

Silent Bob actually quotes it in the proper way with a response to my statement by Luke....I actually advocate for the intelligence services in the military.
CIA or spook operations are quite seperate from the military intelligence in operations involving torture. Military are prohibited from doing so always...even Rumfield attested to that in comments following the killing of Bin Laden.

If this is a honest mistake....no big deal. If other intent is present... I state .....cut it out,or defend it.
I was not present on this board back in february to refute that comment and did not think it necessary now. But I see you are still advancing point on this very same thread. So now....I take exception and request your reply or defense of your statement.

I reinforce my statement with above comments(additional posts) and restate it....Intelligence services are one of the most preferable from a buddhist point of view in the military occupation. I will elaborate furthur if presented with challenge.

Spooks...no spooks(CIA,NSA and others) are incompetant bumbling fools. generally. No one should be a part of that. Ican elaborate upon that as well.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby lukejmo » Mon May 23, 2011 7:28 am

Hmm you're right... don't know what happened there. Sorry about that! I'm still getting used to using this board.
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby muni » Mon May 23, 2011 10:00 am

Ethical, even food of the cook can harm, wrong medicine, wrong blood...
But generally whatever situation, correct mindfulness activity which stands beyond ethical or unethical choices.

How to "attack in mindfulness".. to have to kill one soldier ready to blow up a whole monastery with thousand people inside...?
All the energy, money of military jobs for the welfare of all without any attachment/aversion, I sign for this. Skilful dialogues makes us less stupid than attacking anyway.
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 23, 2011 2:52 pm

lukejmo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The main point is whether you actually agree with the goals that a military force has in mind. From a Buddhist POV, if you do, you share in all the negative actions of the whole army. This is very well detailed in the karma chapter in the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam.

N


Since I don't have the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam handy at the moment, could you cite that? What is the implication of this? I think I've heard of this group-karma thing, and I always wondered about what the exact requirements were. What about tax-payers? What about people who are in the military and disagree? I could see how if you had a mob of people running around that killed someone, sure, that'd be easy to figure out.

If some one sees the goal of a military as just keeping the peace and protecting people (naive, sure) what then?



The idea is that if you are in a military force and you approve of its goals i.e. killing people, you share in all of the karma of all acts of killing multiplied by the number of people in that army. So if you are in a million man army, and you approve of the goals of that army, every time one person is killed by that army, the karma for you is multiplied by a million, thus it becomes very heavy karma indeed.

Taxpayers are generally forced to pay taxes under duress or threat. However, if you are cheerfully sending in your taxes the govt. and support its goals in the army it supports, then also you share that karma X however many people are supporting that army whether civilian or not.

It is hard to be a conscientious objector in the military, but yes, I suppose you could belong to an army and yet be completely opposed to its overall mission.

N
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Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon May 23, 2011 10:48 pm

Courage to resist is one such nonprofit group that helps active military to resist. They are assisting Bradley Manning in his legal defense.
So yes...it is difficult but some, a very very few, are doing it with assistance of groups like this.

So that is a real thing going on right now.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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