Faith and Letting Go

Faith and Letting Go

Postby LastLegend » Fri May 20, 2011 9:16 pm

Astus wrote:This line of reasoning for the futility of monasticism and that we are in the final days make me think of Shinran who realised his utterly evil, totally deluded situation and put his faith solely in Amitabha's vow as the only way to escape samsara and attain buddhahood. That argument makes all other teachings totally pointless.


Right now we are definitely deluded and if we turn our heads now and put pure faith solely in Amitabha's vow, we too will be reborn in Pure Land in no time. The problem is my friend we don't want to leave until our time comes. So we are really attaching to this life. If we really want to leave, recite Amitabha for a week and truly request that Buddha will take us, then he will come. But nobody wants to do this.

It comes down to totally let go, and Shinran has totally let go and repent (admitted that he had created karma and truly wanted to change-to not continue to do again, this is the definition of repent, not just chanting or reciting mantras or Buddhas). So your repentance has to be pure and truth...this is the basis for all cultivation also. Most people are too deluded to turn their heads, so repentance is very importance. By cultivating the path you are considered repenting because you are not trying to walk the path of evil karma (3 karma of body, speech, and mind (greed, anger, and ignorance). This is why refuge in triple jewels is important.

As for the argument, if you really want to attain Buddhahood via Pure Land, while living why do you want to create karma? To attain Buddhahood is to stay way from creating karma. Others people don't cultivate, that's their problem. Not yours lol. To create evil karma, you will be lead further away from Buddha, and only demons and maras endorse your behavior no gods, Bodhisattvas, or Buddhas will be protecting you. The benefit of truly keeping the 5 precepts is you will be protected from evil by proctectors such as gods, Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas. I mean after all you are cultivating the path that's been taught by Buddhas, of course they will support you. By creating evil karma, will this bring conditions that would allow you to recite Amitabha, lets say before you die? What if you just die suddenly?

Thanks for reading my rant
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Re: Faith and Letting Go

Postby Astus » Fri May 20, 2011 9:40 pm

What you describe is one form of Pure Land practice. Shinran's teaching is that because we can't let go we have to rely on the vow. If we could let go there would be little need of other power since we could manage on our own. That's how Amitabha's Pure Land is available for everyone.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Faith and Letting Go

Postby LastLegend » Sat May 21, 2011 7:43 am

People like Shinran usually have not heard of Amitabha until some turning point in their lives. Those whose have heard of Amitabha's vows but still deluded (still creating evil karma) due to lack of faith, lack of understanding of karma, and lack of knowledge on Buddhism in general are considered low low capacities. Sure, they can go to Pure Land too if they repent at the end by putting pure faith in Amitabha. But for people who believe in karma, Amitabha, and study and practice Buddhism, they have much high chance of being reborn in Pure Land. People with low low capacities can't help themselves. That's why they create evil karma because they are more deluded. For people who believe in karma, Amitabha, and study and practice Buddhism to deliberately create evil karma is definitely not very wise. We should strive to do better everyday.

Thanks for listening to rant
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Re: Faith and Letting Go

Postby Nighthawk » Sun May 22, 2011 9:28 am

LastLegend wrote:People like Shinran usually have not heard of Amitabha until some turning point in their lives. Those whose have heard of Amitabha's vows but still deluded (still creating evil karma) due to lack of faith, lack of understanding of karma, and lack of knowledge on Buddhism in general are considered low low capacities. Sure, they can go to Pure Land too if they repent at the end by putting pure faith in Amitabha. But for people who believe in karma, Amitabha, and study and practice Buddhism, they have much high chance of being reborn in Pure Land. People with low low capacities can't help themselves. That's why they create evil karma because they are more deluded. For people who believe in karma, Amitabha, and study and practice Buddhism to deliberately create evil karma is definitely not very wise. We should strive to do better everyday.

Thanks for listening to rant


High capacity or low capacity it has zero relevance in Jodo Shinshu. The only thing that matters is the Nembutsu. Whether your a saint, butcher, doctor, prostitute or soldier Amida welcomes anyone except people who slander the dharma. It is stated very clearly in the vow.
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Re: Faith and Letting Go

Postby LastLegend » Sun May 22, 2011 10:23 am

^ True and those who slander Dharma would not believe in Amitabha.
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Re: Faith and Letting Go

Postby rory » Mon May 30, 2011 3:36 am

Interesting discussion; I'm a pure land follower via Honen so we believe you have to make the effort, Amida's vow is there but we have to practice saying a lot of nenbutsu and try not to commit evil acts. Honen told the prostitute, if she could - to leave her evil profession, but if she couldn't to chant nenbutsu and Amida would come for her. (She did leave and became a nun)
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