Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

[Malcolm]

I still object to the way in which Nydahl attempts to flame up anti-Islamic sentiment as a way to curry favor with his readers and listeners. Counterproductive is the gentlest term to use for it.

We don't live in Europe. So we don't see things the way they do. We are not having our cities overrun with Moslems who have no interest in integrating with our society (not yet, anyway). I don't particularly like nationalism, but Islam is a religion based on cultural warfare and ethnic cleansing, just like Christianity and Judaism. However, Christianity was ultimately neutered by the end of the 19th Century because of the forces of The Enlightenment. Islam never went through an Enlightenment.

[dzoki]

This topic has been about Ole against Islam, Ole's title(s), Ole and the karmapas. What about Ole and his Buddhism? If there is a teacher to be checked on his status as a teacher, shouldn't it be his teachings investigated first of all? No wonder that it's easy to mislead people when nobody gives a damn about what is actually being taught.

It´s good question. Chagdud Rinpoche once said that people in the West are very naive and so anyone who comes and teaches something claiming it is buddhadharma, people will swalow it without any investigation.

Ole´s teaching (that is controversial points of it) in sum:

-Hinayana is for egotistic people.
-Not killing means not killing humans (actually one of his main sponsors from Austria runs a poultry farm, so it is quite clear where this comes from).
-It is ok to steal, if you take just a little from someone who has a lot (for example in the office of the company where you work, there is a lot of markers, so you take one).
-Right speech equals freedom of speech.
-Alkohol is ok, the best drug is healthy sex (the above four statements were made by him in Warsaw in 2010).
-If you have pleasant experiences, that equals an accumulation of merit.

-Bodhisattva vow means not to get angry.
-He uses word space instead of emptiness. Basically he teaches a doctrine of really existing eternal space, where all are unified. Somewhat similar to the ideas of Brahman in some of the Hindu schools.
-Rangtong is nihilism, Shentong means empty plus something above it. The actual view of kagyus is detong (I have never heard of such term in the context of Madhyamaka, but that is what the old man says).
-All in all sutra is boring, the diamondway (this is how he calls vajrayana) is exciting.

-Root Lama is the one you spend most time with (he also sugests to people that he is their root lama and especially his traveling teachers, emphasize this to the other followers of Ole).
-View of vajrayana is that everything is perfect. And one should behave like buddha until one becomes a buddha.
-Samayas are very heavy, so students should not be given these, however they have them automaticaly when they receive teachings from Ole.
-Visions of the deities are the most important thing one can get on the path.

There is much more of nonsense that he preaches, but it would get too lengthy. If you want to know more, watch his youtube vids. read his "mahamudra" a The way things are. However it is basicaly a loss of precious time. Everyone, who is interested to follow him should do their own homework on comparing his teachings to the standard Dharma.

[conebeckham]

It is not always necessary to have done a 3 year retreat in order to "obtain" the title of "Lama," actually...though that is the usual course of events in the Karma Kagyu. There is a "certification letter" from the office of 16th Karmapa which indicates Ole is a "Lama," or teacher, able to teach Dharma.

However, more recently, Shamar Rinpoche has written that Ole's teachings regarding Sex as the Path are, in Shamar's view, inappropriate--there's documentation out there about Shamar's position on this, you can just google it.

In my opinion, Ole's history and activity are a mixed bag--early on, I think he introduced many to the Dharma, especially young people who were more "counter-cultural," and he definitely has taken an anti-drug position (though I don't know about alcohol). His centers practice something they call "3 Lights Meditation" which is really a simple guru yoga practice of the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa. They listen to Ole via a tape (or perhaps via CD at this point, my experience was decades ago) and it's almost like guided visualization. I think that, back in the 70's and even into the early 80's, he and his organization may have provided an option.

But these days, there are many authentic, completely-educated, Lamas--Western and Eastern--who are well-grounded in the tradition, but who are sensitive to cultural differences. Social Mores have changed since the late 60's and early 70's, and "free Sex" etc. are seen quite differently now. Also, accurate translations of many texts have been published, in the last two decades, and the Internet has provided easy research and communication.

In addition, I think Ole's direction has diverged--or developed--into one that features elements that are quite contrary to Buddhist Views--the anti-Islam position being one example. His websites claim he's one of the few Westerners fully qualified to teach, but that's just not true. There are now many Western Lamas who have more complete experience and education.

[tamdrin]

. Social Mores have changed since the late 60's and early 70's, and "free Sex" etc. are seen quite differently now.

This is really too bad isn't it?

[Jikan]

I still object to the way in which Nydahl attempts to flame up anti-Islamic sentiment as a way to curry favor with his readers and listeners. Counterproductive is the gentlest term to use for it.

We don't live in Europe. So we don't see things the way they do. We are not having our cities overrun with Moslems who have no interest in integrating with our society (not yet, anyway). I don't particularly like nationalism, but Islam is a religion based on cultural warfare and ethnic cleansing, just like Christianity and Judaism. However, Christianity was ultimately neutered by the end of the 19th Century because of the forces of The Enlightenment. Islam never went through an Enlightenment.

I disagree.

It's true that many European cities are ringed by impoverished suburbs dominated by immigrants from their former colonies by virtue of their own policies: guest worker programs and the distribution public assistance on one hand, and refusal of full political and social enfranchisement on the other. It's worthwhile to compare the experience of Sweden, where immigrants are taught the language and better encouraged into the mainstream, to that of France of the Netherlands, where immigrants are effectively ghettoized and have little else to do than practice "la perruque" if employed at all. Sweden's system isn't perfect, but it seems to produce better results.

The question of Enlightenment is a debatable one historically. The debate on it is irrelevant to the thread, so I'll just say that if there is something analogous to an enlightenment in the Islamic world, it's happening right now, starting in Tunisia.

Even if you bracket all that, I think my broader point stands: it's counterproductive to use us-against-them rhetoric to build yourself up as a popular One of Us. It's analogous to the teabagger treatment of Latinos in the U.S., who are also said to overrun our cities and dilute our culture like a contagion, all the while relying on familial bonds and medieval superstitions such as saint worship. I find that nonsense objectionable too, as it incites violence (literal and otherwise) against the Other.

That's not to say I think Islam as a religion or body of doctrine is above criticism. It's not an accident I'm not a Muslim. I'm just suspicious of the kinds of rhetorical moves Nydahl is making in order to win friends and influence people, and their consequences.

[Astus]

My personal interest in this thread lies in not my connection to Ole and his group (since I have none) but that in Hungary (and some other European countries) they are the largest Buddhist organisation and there's not one even close to their popularity and number of centres. Their website actually says they have the largest city centre in the Western hemisphere in Budapest. It was mentioned that there are so many other authentic lamas around and lot of translations - but that is not the case everywhere in Europe, nor does everybody know English.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I do not follow Ole or the person he regards as the Karmapa, but if I wasn't busy and it didn't cost anything, I'd probably go and hear him at a public talk, just out of general interest but not because I was looking for any sort of answers or inspiration or teachings. I wouldn't go to an actual teaching session.

[Malcolm]

I disagree.

Ok.

It's true that many European cities are ringed by impoverished suburbs dominated by immigrants from their former colonies by virtue of their own policies: guest worker programs and the distribution public assistance on one hand, and refusal of full political and social enfranchisement on the other. It's worthwhile to compare the experience of Sweden, where immigrants are taught the language and better encouraged into the mainstream, to that of France of the Netherlands, where immigrants are effectively ghettoized and have little else to do than practice "la perruque" if employed at all. Sweden's system isn't perfect, but it seems to produce better results.

In Sweden that openness is ending.

The question of Enlightenment is a debatable one historically. The debate on it is irrelevant to the thread, so I'll just say that if there is something analogous to an enlightenment in the Islamic world, it's happening right now, starting in Tunisia.

Even if you bracket all that, I think my broader point stands: it's counterproductive to use us-against-them rhetoric to build yourself up as a popular One of Us. It's analogous to the teabagger treatment of Latinos in the U.S., who are also said to overrun our cities and dilute our culture like a contagion, all the while relying on familial bonds and medieval superstitions such as saint worship. I find that nonsense objectionable too, as it incites violence (literal and otherwise) against the Other.

Latins who come here do not have at their back an alienated culture that has been historically in conflict with all cultures surrounding it since the 7th century.

That's not to say I think Islam as a religion or body of doctrine is above criticism. It's not an accident I'm not a Muslim. I'm just suspicious of the kinds of rhetorical moves Nydahl is making in order to win friends and influence people, and their consequences.

Ole is a dumb guy. But his concerns, while phrased in right wing terms that I do not particularly admire show that there is an underlying problem with the assimilation of Muslims in Europe. Of course we can point to colonial policies in various colonies, etc., but ghettos form for two reasons, one because ghettoed communities themselves tend to practice cultural exclusion (Muslims and Jews are perfect examples of this i.e. Hallal, Kosher, refusing to eat with gentiles) and are also ghettoized because they are "others". The fact that Christians broke this trend was key to the success of Christianity among Greek slaves in the Roman empire.

Also, I stand by the historical record that shows that Muslims barely tolerated Buddhists in places they conquered and often slaughtered us wholesale and went to great lengths to erase all evidence of Buddhism in Central Asia.

I am pretty sure that the "revolution" in Mulsim countries now will wind up with the creation of Islamocracies like Iran. I don't see these revolutions remaining progressive for very long. The world is in for one long drawn out conflict between the Muslim world and everyone else. You may not like it, you may not believe it, but it is going to happen.

N

[joeroussel]

Thank you guys, I see that Ole Nydahl is not very popular among people outside his circle. I actualy live far from Albuquerque, and I will be just passing through the city on the day, that Ole Nydahl is there. It is at the end of this month. LOL I wrote next month in my first post - it was late night and I was tired.
I like Garchen Rinpoche, but I will not be able to attend his teaching - maybe in the future, who knows? Right now I am considering starting a practice within theravadin group. I did some reading of the basics on buddhism and it seems that for me as a beginner theravadist sober and simple approach is the safest. So long best of luck to all of you.

Joe

[freethinker108]

It definitely seems like there are many on this group who do not like Lama Ole. I very much do but, as evidenced in many other chat groups, it quickly becomes a circular conversation debating why someone should or should not accept him as a teacher. Its not so important though because its better you make up your own mind.

To that end

If you want perhaps the most unbiased listing about Lama Ole as a teacher, check out his Wikipedia listing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Nydahl

If you want to read Lama Ole's own version about his activity as a Lama you can read his web page:
http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/about/

Really the best is to go check out Lama Ole and his groups yourself and make up your own mind. There are some great people in the South West centers and you might have a hard time reconciling some of the very critical remarks made on this thread with the people you actually meet.

Hope this is helpful. Good Luck!

[username]

Thank you guys, I see that Ole Nydahl is not very popular among people outside his circle. I actualy live far from Albuquerque, and I will be just passing through the city on the day, that Ole Nydahl is there. It is at the end of this month. LOL I wrote next month in my first post - it was late night and I was tired.
I like Garchen Rinpoche, but I will not be able to attend his teaching - maybe in the future, who knows? Right now I am considering starting a practice within theravadin group. I did some reading of the basics on buddhism and it seems that for me as a beginner theravadist sober and simple approach is the safest. So long best of luck to all of you.

Joe

What the Buddha Taught:
http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Dr_Walpo ... Taught.pdf

The Four Thoughts:
http://www.palyul.org/eng_about_fourthoughts.htm
http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/buddh ... /dha02.php

[Indrajala]

Also, I stand by the historical record that shows that Muslims barely tolerated Buddhists in places they conquered and often slaughtered us wholesale and went to great lengths to erase all evidence of Buddhism in Central Asia.

I took this photo near Rajgir in Bihar, India:



This one from the ruins of Nalanda University not too far away:



When the Muslims invaded India they burned Nalanda to the ground. They also defaced statues. They did it to Hindu sites as well.

[Heruka]

bread and circus.

two things to keep us enchanted.

[heart]

Ole is a dumb guy. But his concerns, while phrased in right wing terms that I do not particularly admire show that there is an underlying problem with the assimilation of Muslims in Europe. Of course we can point to colonial policies in various colonies, etc., but ghettos form for two reasons, one because ghettoed communities themselves tend to practice cultural exclusion (Muslims and Jews are perfect examples of this i.e. Hallal, Kosher, refusing to eat with gentiles) and are also ghettoized because they are "others". The fact that Christians broke this trend was key to the success of Christianity among Greek slaves in the Roman empire.

Also, I stand by the historical record that shows that Muslims barely tolerated Buddhists in places they conquered and often slaughtered us wholesale and went to great lengths to erase all evidence of Buddhism in Central Asia.

I am pretty sure that the "revolution" in Mulsim countries now will wind up with the creation of Islamocracies like Iran. I don't see these revolutions remaining progressive for very long. The world is in for one long drawn out conflict between the Muslim world and everyone else. You may not like it, you may not believe it, but it is going to happen.

N

Fascism is growing stronger everyday here in Europe. The main point they use to push their brown agenda is hatred against Islam as a religion. Does it rings any bells? Already there been serious suggestions of opening concentration camps for Muslims here in Europe. You have to make up your mind if you really in your heart think that this is something you will support because what some Talibans did in Afghanistan recently or in India a thousands of years ago. Should payback be something we serve on the basis of peoples religion? I find that very frightening and without doubt the reason ChNN is warning against showing our beliefs to openly. The fascist will start with the Muslims but it will not take long before other "strange" religions like Buddhism go the same way.

/magnus

[Heruka]

dont follow others, be a lamp unto oneself.




charlie dont surf!

[Heruka]

The main point they use to push their brown agenda is hatred against Islam as a religion. Does it rings any bells?
/magnus

having a muslim friend or two, i think you have a romantic view M, i can assure you the clash of civilizations is a multi generational, DNA deep sentiment within muslim world and thought, even so called moderates of non saud influenced/exported Wahhabi islam, will stun you with their kufar distain.

remember that to them, to lie to a fellow muslim is very bad, but to be an open faced liar to a kufar is quite ok in sharia law.

dont be fooled, this is not infidels way, but theirs.

[tobes]

I still object to the way in which Nydahl attempts to flame up anti-Islamic sentiment as a way to curry favor with his readers and listeners. Counterproductive is the gentlest term to use for it.

We don't live in Europe. So we don't see things the way they do. We are not having our cities overrun with Moslems who have no interest in integrating with our society (not yet, anyway). I don't particularly like nationalism, but Islam is a religion based on cultural warfare and ethnic cleansing, just like Christianity and Judaism. However, Christianity was ultimately neutered by the end of the 19th Century because of the forces of The Enlightenment. Islam never went through an Enlightenment.

Right, the same Enlightenment which lead directly to the genocide of six million Jews? Europe: civilised. Middle East: barbarian.....c'mon, this is nonsense. You know better.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Muslims are ok if you are a Muslim.
Not to be a Muslim
Means that the unbeliever
Can be cheated

Muslim.jpg (54.55 KiB) Viewed 1384 times

NO COMMENT


Well Christians, Muslims and Jewish have the same God.

But they are continue involved in war with eachother. Reason could be their God who is also competitive towards other Gods?
Slowly am i convinced that their God is a demi God or a War Lord, because the many never ending wars his adherents cause.
For the Jewish is their God a reason to be the best among others and for the Islamitics a reason to kill others if they are unbelievers, who come anyway in the hell.
All live worldwide in Gettos, because they do not want to live among others, or the others do not like them.

I did live in Antwerp one time among the Jewish society. They all do not work in the society like we do but have so their own jobs like selling diamants. They have their own tailor, kosher butcher, etc. You do not see these guys seldom outside their getto. So the jewish society is like the Muslim one, a society within the society.

The Christians did see the black as persons who must be converted otherwise they were dumb wild tribes. The Jehova did try to convert even the Tibetans.....
For the Christians like the Dutchmen a reason to export black people (slaves) to southern America, etc. undoubtly a black page in the Dutch history.
They got these Negros or purchased them from the Islam in Northern Africa.

Now about the very criminal Islam youth in Holland. They are not realy Muslim and also not realy European. These youth is very aggressive and criminal and good food for the Mudjahedin like Al Quaida etc. They go for the fight because they do not have to loose anything and so they can transform their aggression into good deeds.

My daughter has a relation with a Muslim. But my daughter is not welcome in their family because her child, who is from a non Muslim. So they love eachother but cannot come together. The elder brother does the control....... with violence or without, that does not the matter.
If a Muslima would have such a relationship she could be killed by her family. This custom is in the Turkish society famous.
So there are many Muslimas who do escape from their homes and live in the underground.

Muslims are the worsest among the above mentioned 3 brother religions. But all 3 are very bad examples of a good religion.
All in all the God or the adherents of that religion(s) who are called: Jewish, Muslim or Christians, did and do cause a lot of problems into our world, all based on war etc.

Best wishes
KY

[heart]

The main point they use to push their brown agenda is hatred against Islam as a religion. Does it rings any bells?
/magnus

having a muslim friend or two, i think you have a romantic view M, i can assure you the clash of civilizations is a multi generational, DNA deep sentiment within muslim world and thought, even so called moderates of non saud influenced/exported Wahhabi islam, will stun you with their kufar distain.

remember that to them, to lie to a fellow muslim is very bad, but to be an open faced liar to a kufar is quite ok in sharia law.

dont be fooled, this is not infidels way, but theirs.

So what is the plan Heruka, kill them all? I am asking seriously here, what is your solution?

/magnus

[tobes]

Ole is a dumb guy. But his concerns, while phrased in right wing terms that I do not particularly admire show that there is an underlying problem with the assimilation of Muslims in Europe. Of course we can point to colonial policies in various colonies, etc., but ghettos form for two reasons, one because ghettoed communities themselves tend to practice cultural exclusion (Muslims and Jews are perfect examples of this i.e. Hallal, Kosher, refusing to eat with gentiles) and are also ghettoized because they are "others". The fact that Christians broke this trend was key to the success of Christianity among Greek slaves in the Roman empire.

N

Well, if Europe was really enlightened in the Kantian sense, wouldn't Europeans be genuinely cosmopolitan in orientation? What about Locke and tolerance?

I think the problem of assimilation is strongly connected to the problem of robust nationalism.....of precisely the kind emphasised by Ole. Once "French" is defined reductively in terms of uniform culture, anything other to it is immediately rejected as unFrench. This means, that if you're Muslim, no matter how many generations you've lived in France and made good contributions to society, no matter how virtuous a citizen you may be, how integrated you feel, you will always be seen as an 'other.'

It is the greatest of ironies that this problematic gets catched out in liberal-enlightenment terms, when it is infact profoundly psychoanalytic: irrational to the extreme. The identifications people make to nation-states are constructed and without substance: Buddhists should be well aware of these processes, and the dangers they contain.

Robust nationalism was the core reason for the failure of the Enlightenment as a political project, and the failure persists in the present day defence of good civilised, white, Frenchness, Dutchness, Austrianess et al, all of which, can only exist if 'the other' is demonised, made alien, scapegoated.

We've been here before.

It did not end very well.