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the great rebirth debate - Page 35 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:19 pm

One more thing, Craig. The "I" is being "reborn" multiple times throughout the day as perception arises and falls colored by ignorance, and it gets sick and then dies before it is reborn again?

What about the streamwinner, reborn at max only seven times after that level of attainment? So, his or her "I" gets reborn seven times, then what?

meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:32 pm


vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby vinasp » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:15 pm

Hi everyone,

Several posters have quoted MN 36 in support of an opinion that the Buddha actually knew that rebirth was a fact. I think they should take a closer look at the text. The sequence is :

MN 36.38 "When my concentrated mind was thus purified ... I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives ..."

MN 36.39 "This was the first true knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night ..."

MN 36.40 "When my concentrated mind was thus purified ... I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings ... Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing ... according to their actions".

MN 36.41 "This was the second true knowledge attained by me in the middle watch of the night ..."

MN 36.42 "When my concentrated mind was thus purified ... I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints (asavas). I directly knew as it actually is :"This is suffering ... ; This is the origin of suffering ; This is the cessation of
suffering ; This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering ; These are the taints ; This is the origin of the taints ; This is the cessation of the taints ; This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints".

MN 36.43 "When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance ..."

MN 36.44 "This was the third true knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night".

The section 36.42 is describing the entire noble eightfold path, when Gotama sees this he becomes a noble one. Prior to this he is still a puthujjana.

Section 36.43 describes the actual enlightenment, Gotama is now an arahant. Note the destruction of the asava of ignorance.

Now, what credibility do the first and second knowledges have ? Gotama was still a worldling at the time of those "attainments". Also, even the eye of dhamma which is attained by a stream-winner is regarded as higher than the divine eye.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:38 pm


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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:08 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:49 am


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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:17 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:42 am


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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:51 am

Thank you Nowheat

:goodpost:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Laurens
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Laurens » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:39 am

I have come to the conclusion that instead of debating endlessly here we should all go off to our own individual caves (or bedrooms) and meditate untill we attain knowledge of the passing away and rising of beings. Then we can come back here and debate afterwards :P

Anyone??

Haha, nah I'm just jealous because I don't know the Tipitaka well enough to make lengthy posts in this topic.

All the best
Laurens
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

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Kare
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kare » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:55 am

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Laurens
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Laurens » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:33 am

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:33 pm

Greetings,

"I am not so much interested in arguments that one ought to believe this or that, or to disbelieve it - but rather in the fact that one is forced by the nature of experience to believe or disbelieve (which is only a mode of belief). The octopus' sucker must stick to something."

From Bhikkhu Nanamoli's "Thinker's Notebook - Book 2" - http://waij.com/oldbooks/thinkersnotebookpages.html?27

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:06 am

Do those who do not believe in rebirth also not believe in Kamma-vipaka?

Also thank you Retro for posting that link, this is a very interesting book indeed.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby pink_trike » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:28 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:15 am


meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:10 pm


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Rhino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Rhino » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:57 pm

With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.

meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:34 pm

No replies? Did we win?

(lol)

:tongue:

-M

seanpdx
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:08 pm



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