Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

[Malcolm]

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.

What are you referring to when you say "essence mahamudra"? What introduction?

Essence mahāmudra as described by Kongtrul.

This depends on the descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment:

The essence is the descent of the vajra of pristine awareness (ye shes rdo rje)...

See page 225-226 Esoteric Instructions, volume of Treasury of Knowledge series.

[adinatha]

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.

What are you referring to when you say "essence mahamudra"? What introduction?

Essence mahāmudra as described by Kongtrul.

This depends on the descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment:

The essence is the descent of the vajra of pristine awareness (ye shes rdo rje)...

See page 225-226 Esoteric Instructions, volume of Treasury of Knowledge series.

The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction. It is the descent of blessings based on interdependence of lineage, guru and faithful disciple.

What you are calling "real mahamudra" that doesn't depend on anything is the the blessing of the vajra wisdom empowerment.

[Malcolm]

The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction.

Yes it is. The procedure for conferring the empowerment of the wisdom vajra is described in detail in chapter seventeen of Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi. This is the original source.

[adinatha]

The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction.

Yes it is. The procedure for conferring the empowerment of the wisdom vajra is described in detail in chapter seventeen of Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi. This is the original source.

Maybe that's what it says in a text, but as you may know the lineage develops over time and the nature of wisdom blessings becomes more direct. Milarepa has specific teachings about this. Jnanasiddhi is only referred to now as a source of support for the existence of the vajra wisdom empowerment to deal with critics. Jnanasiddhi text is no longer used in practice.

[Malcolm]

The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction.

Yes it is. The procedure for conferring the empowerment of the wisdom vajra is described in detail in chapter seventeen of Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi. This is the original source.

Maybe that's what it says in a text, but as you may know the lineage develops over time and the nature of wisdom blessings becomes more direct. Milarepa has specific teachings about this. Jnanasiddhi is only referred to now as a source of support for the existence of the vajra wisdom empowerment to deal with critics. Jnanasiddhi text is no longer used in practice.

There is no contradiction. Guru, disciple and dependent origination = empowerment. It is not an elaborate empowerment with many words and so on. But there is an intention to transmit and an intention to receive. That is required.

The last chapter says:

Meditating the mandala of mudras, colors,
arms, seats,
meditating the three samadhis, the four mudras,
three faces, six arms,
this is just the outer bark,
the intimate instructions of various elaborations
all of them are explained to be inferior,
all of them are just methods of simulation, etc.

[adinatha]

There is no contradiction. Guru, disciple and dependent origination = empowerment. It is not an elaborate empowerment with many words and so on. But there is an intention to transmit and an intention to receive. That is required.

Not sure what that quote shows. Vajra wisdom empowerment is not a ceremony. When one joins a lineage there is an intent to join. When one requests teachings there is the intent to receive instructions. But at the time of the vajra wisdom empowerment these don't apply. The master surprises the disciple with it. The disciple may not understand what's happening. The empowerment may dawn then, or with a delayed reaction.

[Malcolm]

[quote="adinatha"]

Not sure what that quote shows. Vajra wisdom empowerment is not a ceremony.

[quote]

It can be. It also might not be. But it is a transmission. The masters intends to transmit something, the disciples intends to receive. It is a fancy name for direct introduction.

[adinatha]

There are secret things you don't know. And I can't say. Kagyu is different.

[Pero]

There are secret things you don't know. And I can't say. Kagyu is different.

But I know, I know.

In any case, you don't seem to think there are things you don't know.

[tamdrin]

There are secret things you don't know. And I can't say. Kagyu is different.

Yeah don't think you know everything... I just learned in reading some of the teachings of Bardor Tulku that there are lineages of the 6 yogas that are secret too- it is only a more common one that is passed on in 3 year retreats etc..

[Malcolm]

There are secret things you don't know. And I can't say. Kagyu is different.

Yeah don't think you know everything... I just learned in reading some of the teachings of Bardor Tulku that there are lineages of the 6 yogas that are secret too- it is only a more common one that is passed on in 3 year retreats etc..

Anyway Sean, apparently David is having a real interesting program in VT in early June. You can ask that Lama about some of adinatha's pronouncements.

[tamdrin]

Hey Malcolm,
You mean the one with Drupon Rinchen Dorje on Saraha's Doha's, etc?? What exactly are Adinatha's pronouncements? Yeah there is secret stuff in the Kagyu that no one has access too.. not me, not him, almost no one..

[Malcolm]

Hey Malcolm,
You mean the one with Drupon Rinchen Dorje on Saraha's Doha's, etc?? What exactly are Adinatha's pronouncements? Yeah there is secret stuff in the Kagyu that no one has access too.. not me, not him, almost no one..

Of course there is secret stuff in all lineages. But when you find out what it is, you find out it is not really so secret. What makes it secret is that usually it is a form of oral instruction that clarifies a key point which is only useful to someone who has experience in a given practice. There are many such instructions like this in Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu,Gelug, etc. Experiential instructions.

But there is not such thing as a secret instruction that grants anyone instant buddhahood.

N

[tamdrin]

"There are different levels of the six dharmas of Naropa. There is the outer—common—variety, which is what is given in ordinary three-year retreats. And there is a more secret version, which had almost died out because it cannot be mass-marketed. And that was one of the reasons why Dharma Lord Sonam Zangpo took rebirth as Karma Chokyi Senge (Lion of Dharma), better known nowadays as Terchen Barway Dorje.

Terchen Barway Dorje, who was born in 1836, received both the long lineage and the short lineage for the secret teachings of the six dharmas of Naropa. He received the long lineage from Dungtrul Rinpoche, a great lama of the Barom Kagyu, who was and is the rebirth (or an emanation) of the mahasiddha Dombhi Heruka. Barway Dorje also received the short lineage of the six dharmas of Naropa according to the secret teachings of the Barom Kagyu in a series of visions of a dakini. The dakini’s name was Akasha Yogini (or the Yogini of Space). This dakini was the wisdom form of the human dakini Atroma, who had been the consort, disciple, and teacher of Sonam Zangpo. When she appeared in visions to Sonam Zangpo’s rebirth—Terchen Barway Dorje—she gave him the direct short lineage of the Barom Kagyu teachings in general and especially that of the six dharmas of Naropa and the mahamudra"