Adhi Buddha(s)

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Since a long time am i interested to know,

- Why there is the Adhi Buddha who is called: Dorje Chang / Vajradhara
- How to see this in relation to: Kuntu Zangpo
- Do we mean here also the same entity like Dorje Chang = Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra?
- Or can one speak here about only different lineages with a different source?
- In relation to the above mentioned Adi Buddhas, is therefore Mahamudra = Dzogchen?


Best wishes
KY

[Malcolm]

Tashi delek,

Since a long time am i interested to know,

- Why there is the Adhi Buddha who is called: Dorje Chang / Vajradhara
- How to see this in relation to: Kuntu Zangpo
- Do we mean here also the same entity like Dorje Chang = Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra?
- Or can one speak here about only different lineages with a different source?
- In relation to the above mentioned Adi Buddhas, is therefore Mahamudra = Dzogchen?
KY

Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

Samantbhadra is the name of the dharmakāya or the mind of the Buddhas. Vajradhara is the name for Samantabhadra's manifestation in Akaniṣṭha ('og min).

All lineages begin in Samantabhadra, but the Sambhogakāya who communicates this is called Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, etc. Sometimes you see texts in Dzogchen where Samantabhadra is directly teaching Vajradhara.

The state of the mahāmudra and the state of mahāsaṃdhi (rdzogs chen) are absolutely identical. The paths are very different.

[dzoki]

Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

Also in Kagyu texts they are sometimes conflated into "Kunzang Dorje Chang".

[Malcolm]

Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

Also in Kagyu texts they are sometimes conflated into "Kunzang Dorje Chang".

Samantabhadra = mind
Vajradhara,Odla Shenkar, etc. = speech
Shakyamuni, Tonpa Shenrab, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, etc = body.

[adinatha]

Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Since a long time am i interested to know,

- Why there is the Adhi Buddha who is called: Dorje Chang / Vajradhara
- How to see this in relation to: Kuntu Zangpo
- Do we mean here also the same entity like Dorje Chang = Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra?
- Or can one speak here about only different lineages with a different source?
- In relation to the above mentioned Adi Buddhas, is therefore Mahamudra = Dzogchen?
KY

Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

Samantbhadra is the name of the dharmakāya or the mind of the Buddhas. Vajradhara is the name for Samantabhadra's manifestation in Akaniṣṭha ('og min).

All lineages begin in Samantabhadra, but the Sambhogakāya who communicates this is called Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, etc. Sometimes you see texts in Dzogchen where Samantabhadra is directly teaching Vajradhara.

The state of the mahāmudra and the state of mahāsaṃdhi (rdzogs chen) are absolutely identical. The paths are very different.

Tashi delek Namdrol,

Thanks for your post.

Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.
Mahamudra does not know the practice of the lights whereas Dzogchen has them.
Mahamudra is based on Tantra whereas Dzogchen does not per se.

Well some like JLA, points out that in the Dzogchen books nothing is known about that Dzogchen = Mahamudra.
The tradition of the Nepali Kagnying are (some of) the ones who put a claim on the no difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
But they practice first Mahamudra before practizing Dzogchen.....

Personal are my Dzogchen experiences more to the point than my past Mahamudra experiences / practice.
That means that because of Dzogchen practice i made progress. Would that mean that my Mahamudra practice or teachers were not ok?
No they were all excellent but i was stuck in the practice, due to not recognizing the Natural State.
At the moment did i made more progress / emancipation than before (22 years Tantra and Mahamudra)

So i must say that indeed Dorje Chang is not Kuntu Zangpo in the sense that my mom is not my daddy but i am their son.
Further is it interesting to know that Dorje Chang got teachings from Kuntu Zangpo, so here is one the Master and the other the one who gets treachings.
All in all very complicated visions, which i understand seen in the light of Tibetan Culture.

Everything stems out of the base, or the Zhi / Ma, even we do........... But there are here and there great differences regarding the level of understanding, karma and so are the paths different with their philosophy and practice.

Sure everything will lead to the Natural State, but the duration could be endless in Samsara to reach that.
So are the methods with their paths........

Best wishes
KY

[heart]

Well some like JLA, points out that in the Dzogchen books nothing is known about that Dzogchen = Mahamudra.
The tradition of the Nepali Kagnying are (some of) the ones who put a claim on the no difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
But they practice first Mahamudra before practizing Dzogchen.....

The equality of Dzogchen and Mahamudra is not invented by Ka-Nying Lamas and Rinpoches, it has a very long tradition. Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, friend, disciple and teacher of Longchenpa and fellow disciple to Rigdzin Kumaradza. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, disciple of the Terton Jatson Nyingpo. Karma Chagme, teacher and disciple of Terton Mingyur Dorje. These are the sources for the teaching I received from my master Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, abbot of Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling in Nepal. If you want to understand this approach Kalden I suggest that you read Tsele Natsok Rangdrols excellent text translated as "Heart of the matter". The heart of this matter is that the traditions of Dzogchen, Madhyamika and Mahamudra all equally point directly to the natural state. The methods of these traditions are very different but their aim is the same.
Only Dzogchen has the the method of Tögal so it make sense that if you want to practice Tögal you have to turn to to Dzogchen after practicing according to Madyamikha and Mahamudra.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

Not really, it just seems that way. Also the Guhyasamaja, etc., refers to the dharmakāya as Samantabhadra. However, in new tantra system of Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug and Jonang, Samantabhadra is never represented with form since he is the mind of all the Buddhas. Only Vajradhara has a representation since he represents the principle of the manifestation of the dharmakāya as a teacher.

In Dzogchen however, the dharmakāya is represented as a Buddha free from ornaments, where as the sambhogakāya is represented as possessing ornaments.

In the system of the nine kāyas Vajradhara represents the dharmakāya sambhogakāya, whereas Samanabhadra is the dharmkāya dharmakāya.

[Malcolm]

Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.

You missed the point. The state of dzogchen and the state of mahamudra are the same.

The paths of dzogchen and the paths of mahamudra are completely different.

[dzoki]

Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.

You missed the point. The state of dzogchen and the state of mahamudra are the same.

The paths of dzogchen and the paths of mahamudra are completely different.

Well, it depends on what you compare, I found the instructions of 9th Karmapa´s Ngedon Gyatso and the instructions on Kham Lug Semde compiled by Yungton Dorje Pal to be identical. I would say that some of the semde systems and some systems of mahamudra are same. One thing that I found particulary interesting about mahamudra is that, at least in Kamtsang tradition, they use 5 points position and 7point position of Akshobhya which are both used in tummo practice also for shine and lhagtong training.

[Malcolm]

Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.

You missed the point. The state of dzogchen and the state of mahamudra are the same.

The paths of dzogchen and the paths of mahamudra are completely different.

Well, it depends on what you compare, I found the instructions of 9th Karmapa´s Ngedon Gyatso and the instructions on Kham Lug Semde compiled by Yungton Dorje Pal to be identical.

That is interesting.

Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N

[adinatha]

Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

Not really, it just seems that way. Also the Guhyasamaja, etc., refers to the dharmakāya as Samantabhadra. However, in new tantra system of Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug and Jonang, Samantabhadra is never represented with form since he is the mind of all the Buddhas. Only Vajradhara has a representation since he represents the principle of the manifestation of the dharmakāya as a teacher.

In Dzogchen however, the dharmakāya is represented as a Buddha free from ornaments, where as the sambhogakāya is represented as possessing ornaments.

In the system of the nine kāyas Vajradhara represents the dharmakāya sambhogakāya, whereas Samanabhadra is the dharmkāya dharmakāya.

There are many different representation traditions. In Drikung, Vajradhara is synonymous with the dharmakaya.

[adinatha]

Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N

There are many different ways to describe the four yogas. Perhaps one way is comparative with the sems de. But there are others that are equal to the ultimate mahamudra.

[Malcolm]

Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

Not really, it just seems that way. Also the Guhyasamaja, etc., refers to the dharmakāya as Samantabhadra. However, in new tantra system of Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug and Jonang, Samantabhadra is never represented with form since he is the mind of all the Buddhas. Only Vajradhara has a representation since he represents the principle of the manifestation of the dharmakāya as a teacher.

In Dzogchen however, the dharmakāya is represented as a Buddha free from ornaments, where as the sambhogakāya is represented as possessing ornaments.

In the system of the nine kāyas Vajradhara represents the dharmakāya sambhogakāya, whereas Samanabhadra is the dharmkāya dharmakāya.

There are many different representation traditions. In Drikung, Vajradhara is synonymous with the dharmakaya.

Well, in reality, Dharmakāya does not have form, ornaments, etc. Vajradhara is Sambhogakāya manifestation of dharmakāya. This is clearly explained in the new tantra system. Original source of Samantbhadra as Dharmakāya is from Yoga tantra, Tattvasaṃgraha. Also is present in Guhyasamaja, the main father tantra the same way. In the new tantra schools, Vajradhara is considered the source of all teachings. Even so, when depicted with ornaments, etc., Sambhogakāya. As I said, there is no real contradiction. We call Vajradhara dharmakāya because Vajradhara is the dharmakāya manifesting as sambhogkāya to give teachings.

N

[Malcolm]

Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N

There are many different ways to describe the four yogas. Perhaps one way is comparative with the sems de. But there are others that are equal to the ultimate mahamudra.

IN general, four yogas are considered part of sutra mahāmudra. We say "sutra", but in reality, explanation of sutra mahāmudra is mixed up with tantras as well.

You should understand I have had in-depth personal instruction on the similarities and differences between mahāmudra and dzogchen from Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche. I translated his book on Five Fold mahāmudra for him and edited it with him and his student, Khenpo Tenzin. Gyalpo Rinpoche was the dean of the Drikung Shedra for many years. For me, he is an awakened person. He is one of my important teachers.

[adinatha]

As I said, there is no real contradiction. We call Vajradhara dharmakāya because Vajradhara is the dharmakāya manifesting as sambhogkāya to give teachings.

N

That's true. All I'm noticing is that I never saw the name Samantabhadra in connection with Drikung except when referring to the bodhisattva Samantabhadra. And in the pith instructions it is stated that Vajardhara is the nature of mind, dharmakaya.

[Malcolm]

As I said, there is no real contradiction. We call Vajradhara dharmakāya because Vajradhara is the dharmakāya manifesting as sambhogkāya to give teachings.

N

That's true. All I'm noticing is that I never saw the name Samantabhadra in connection with Drikung except when referring to the bodhisattva Samantabhadra. And in the pith instructions it is stated that Vajardhara is the nature of mind, dharmakaya.

Sure, I can understand that. In any case, it is as I said.

[adinatha]

Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N

There are many different ways to describe the four yogas. Perhaps one way is comparative with the sems de. But there are others that are equal to the ultimate mahamudra.

IN general, four yogas are considered part of sutra mahāmudra. We say "sutra", but in reality, explanation of sutra mahāmudra is mixed up with tantras as well.

You should understand I have had in-depth personal instruction on the similarities and differences between mahāmudra and dzogchen from Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche. I translated his book on Five Fold mahāmudra for him and edited it with him and his student, Khenpo Tenzin. Gyalpo Rinpoche was the dean of the Drikung Shedra for many years. For me, he is an awakened person. He is one of my important teachers.

I appreciate you've had all kinds of teachers. My little unknown lama descends from Pachung Rinpoche and Yeshe Rinpoche. These people are not khenpos. They are realized siddhas and 3-year retreat masters. Their teachings come from the perspective of experience. I'm pointing out that there is a way of demonstrating the Four Yogas in one's immediate direct realization of mahamudra.

[Malcolm]

I appreciate you've had all kinds of teachers. My little unknown lama descends from Pachung Rinpoche and Yeshe Rinpoche. These people are not khenpos. They are realized siddhas and 3-year retreat masters. Their teachings come from the perspective of experience. I'm pointing out that there is a way of demonstrating the Four Yogas in one's immediate direct realization of mahamudra.

You will find it very hard to find someone in Drikung more qualified than Gyalpo Rinpoche. Even Garchen Rinpoche has taken empowerments from him. He is renowned among other things for his expertise in the Yamantanaka cycle. He is an emanation of Rigzin Godem.

[adinatha]

I appreciate you've had all kinds of teachers. My little unknown lama descends from Pachung Rinpoche and Yeshe Rinpoche. These people are not khenpos. They are realized siddhas and 3-year retreat masters. Their teachings come from the perspective of experience. I'm pointing out that there is a way of demonstrating the Four Yogas in one's immediate direct realization of mahamudra.

You will find it very hard to find someone in Drikung more qualified than Gyalpo Rinpoche. Even Garchen Rinpoche has taken empowerments from him. He is renowned among other things for his expertise in the Yamantanaka cycle. He is an emanation of Rigzin Godem.

Of course Gyalpo Rinpoche is a nice master. Drikung has two lineages in it. The first is the lineage of empowerment people, like His Holiness Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche and Garchen Rinpoche. They can only give empowerments and teachings, but not retreat stuff like Six Yogas. The second is the lineage holders, gelongs, who maintain the practices and realizations and give teachings, but cannot give empowerments. Drikung devised this two branch system so that no one master could control the lineage. The purpose is to maintain the lineage. The Gelongs must descend from Gelong Pachung Rinpoche; that means have done three year retreat in his lineage of retreat masters. Now Gelong Tashi Rabten is the lineage holder in Drikungti. He responsible for being the antenna for the lineage blessings, because Drikung has an unbroken history of at least one master in each generation that reaches Vajradhara level. Pachung Rinpoche's other direct disciple was Gelong Yeshe Rinpoche. He held his last three-year retreat back in the late 90s in Almora. A few retreat masters, drubpons, were made from that group. Two are in the United States. One is Drubpon Rinchen Dorje who is supervising the three year retreat at Garchen Rinpoche's center. The other is Drubpon Gonpo Dorje who has established a center in San Francisco.