Buddhahood is a certainty and unavoidable

[ronnewmexico]

.....and yes (very cute)....it is not a thing which may be attained bought nor sold on the common market. It is not a objecf.

Eventually for those of the western culture that may perhaps be familiar with the movie groundhog day (forget the sappy hollywood ending---romantic love will only bring another rebirth as a human) you will, after billions of lives become so sick and tired of being sick and tired of the me...it will be quite finally put aside. The me's ruses to maintain will become so old tired and worn they will after all become simply unworkable and unuseable like a worn out hoe in a spring garden,broken handle and all, left to rot in the weeds discarded.

We have in our mindstream the tendency to be born into a realm where it is thought this thing must be ferverently worked upon by various means. And that is true to a extent but as the notion we will never attain enlightenment is true to a extent(no we exists to do such a thing)...it is a bit misleading.
A path leads somewhere but it is not the object to which we walk.

So that aside, and said.... the me self other concept is simply untenable. It is not self sustaining. It is false a falsehood. As such as a birth calls for a death suchly the me must dissolve. A progression of sorts occurs. Part of this progression is of course faith devotion and all the rest. The spiritual. Eventually all notion of seperateness become so firmly disinclined in our mindstream it becomes not possible to start the reconstruction of self and other.

It may take billions upon billions of lives.And we may consider ourselves so very special to be where we are presently able to know such great things and reach such perceived great heights, truth be told there is no height at all.
WE can't force these things, we cannot as prisioners attempt a forceful escape by killing oneself, making oneself into the greatest of prisioners such as perhaps a trustee who can walk where they will and do great things normal prisioners do not.....no those things are but the same. Me me me. It is the me that is our prison. Intellectual understanding of this thing...a ruse by me to reaffirm the me in the end not productive at all. This must be experienced, not read about.

Eventually our time, our sentence to me, will flat plain and simple be...up.

So yes endeavor the spiritual path. It is quite necessary here and now.
Have no fear. We as humans simply do not understand the largeness of it all. A billion worlds a billion realms a billion universes, there simply exists not the numbers known to us to approximate the size of this thing we are part of. Yes we are unique and singular but any aware thing is unique and singular, in a comparative sense to that which is inert. The understanding is simply so much larger it draws us continually away from self and other. We must work almost continually to maintain such a thing as self and other. In the end it becomes quite exhausting. The evidence exists quite continually and abounds all around us at every moment things are not as we want them to be. It is greatly tireing to maintain such falsehoods for more than a billion years or so.

So no fear my fellow friends, it is that large and the time frames(if such a thing can be called to exist)so enormous, there is not a single possibility in the scheme of things as they are, that the eventuality for this awareness composite that appears(what we call I), ...eventually very eventually this thing will not become aware of things as they are.

It is unescapable. We are awareness composite. WE are perhaps as a brain cell to a body, the thinking think which understands. Compassion is the flip side of understanding. As we understand we express compassion....it is as things are. They are no other way.
With compassionate effect comes happiness. With happiness comes a self produced environment conducive of more understanding. With more understanding comes liberation from the me.....our jailer.

We will get tired of noncompassion and deevolution. The teacher Buddha was after all a hell being at one time.
The question may become important to us....at what stage in this thing are we.
Important it may be in a way but unimportant as in the sense our reality speaks of where we are, no better guidepost may be found.

So no fear my friends. It is pathless, it is formless, it is above and beyond and found to be nowhere at all but it is inevitable.....

I must respond. It is simply so sad that one may think a thing that is aimed at may not be reached, when while not reached in a conventional fashion such a thing is quite inevitable.

To be not confused I am not stateing I am enlightened in any fashion being a layperson with little understanding of things, and certainly not the sharpest tool in that shed. But though I may not be any such thing at all I fully understand I have little toleration of crap, being thrown about leading peoples to loose faith in things as they are going to be.

Enlightenment is inevitable. Prehaps relax into it. It will come.

The idea it will not...my personal take....another mind ruse to sustain self and other. If we allow this will come, it spells doom for the thing called me. Me can simply not allow such to be entertained. So me developes various subtrafuges to make that not so. I could go on and on about me and the various means to a end which is simply sustance of the concept of me...but it could quickly get quite tedius. As the various lives produced by me no matter how happy filled how sadness filled how godlike demonlike painful or blissful all in the end become quite tedius.All things of this me produced since they are not real in the end become quite tedius. Suffice it to say. me will never allow a notion to exist that me does not exist. So it will employ any method to see this is never found to be so.....me is not. It greatest and only threat.
The jailers only threat being.....those he guards will seek not escape nor respect that they are in a thing that approximates a jail. The jailer if such a thng does happen becoming then the jailed.

Respond as you may, say what you will, it does not matter. Remember you were told this thing if you care to.
Quite forget it suddenly if that is your direction. Be mad call it a great egoism a great fault a hidden thing which rightly must be kept secret from all to prevent destruction....I don't care a whit.
That's it......for me(a personal note) simply to enjoy this thing this me has wrought. Every singular sensation perception pain joy bliss suffering a dance with my pulsebeat the very blood that circulates a song the best most empathetic song one may have ever heard. Meaning quite unequivocally......I don't care a whit. I personally will relax into it and come what may.

This has been said.
Demons....read or sense this thing as is your inclination.
It is your fate as well.
Longer though you may tread that path. I may not be found.....only this worthless husk of puss and blood. Effect your change upon that....what is nakedly that no I may call other.
Your fate it is the same, long though may be your stay....perfect enlightenment you cannot allay.

And what is courseing through my blood at this very moment is....

Rancid....simply nothing can cause us to fall back down. Padmesambhava, others, reality itself.... brings us back up, or back to understanding which is what we are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O0ivJfqG_E

[LastLegend]

Thanks for the poetry dawg.

My practice is to stay away from attachments. For example, I quit drinking. There are other attachments such as wealth, lust, fame, food, and sleep I am working on.

[gregkavarnos]

There is no guarantee that we will leave samsara merely by cycling through samsara. Liberation is not gained by accident or fate but through deliberate actions. I think you will find that this is the central tenet of Buddhism. What you are proposing sounds like a Hinduistic model but without a creator to guide the process.

It'll all work out in the end? I'm sorry my friend but not if we don't make the effort for it to work out.

[ronnewmexico]

Thanks we're all working at something I'd guess. I attach with every thought I think, it being the nature of the beast. Attach to the attachment I do watch so I do not do.

A hindu model....not at all. Hinduism abscribes even at the ghia or spirit found in all kind(there are numerous kinds)...with a other power or unchangeable object.

Nothing is unchangeable to or for us. If such was so we could not perceive it. Some very rare forms of Hinduism abscribe to a view which is equal to some forms of Buddhism. The form of Buddhism that would most approximate my view has the presence of no finally considered inherantly existant object to include awareness itself. No form of Hinduism I find holds to that view. Some forms of Buddhism and HInduism do abscribe to the view that awareness itself is inherantly existant in beings.The majority of Buddhists in fact...the vast majority by population hold that view, awareness being inherantly existant in sentient beings.
Did you know that in India the Judiciary in the 90's did proclaim Buddhism(and Jainism) forms of Hinduism? Certainly in the Buddhists areas closest to India many forms of Buddhism are found that almost exactly replicate Hinduism. But my opinion is the furthest extreem from that.

Short term yes we have goals and aspiration and direction especially in this realm and at this time. I don't discount the necessity of that in this place and at this time. We do not cycle through anything. We are at our core awareness, understanding things.That is what we are and how we function. This body this being, is a direct result of a misconstruction of how we and thusly things are. Misconstructions cannot stand.
Eventually they fall. In a very very long long time frame this thing to will fall. Our observations of things speak not of misconstructed things enduring. Eventually our observations attest what is misconstructed must fail. Nothing built in such fashion is self sustaining.
Believing such is so is just belief. It faults our direct observational results.

Effort....the effort in inherant in what we are. Removing me self and all the rest we are things that are aware, want and do understand what is. Effort is implicit in the mechanism of being aware. Show me a awareness which is not a effort and I will so you a thing which does not exist.
It is effortless in the sense that there is no me or self in control to direct or provide impetus for action. But nevertheless effort is required in any observation in any act of awareness. It is not that we lack effort to understand it is that this effort is misdirected to ways that do not provide proper real understanding. Awareness the act of cognition understanding even without personal intention always requires effort.
A objerct comes into a room. We respond by observing or cognicizing the object.We can not do otherwise it is our way. But that we can do not otherwise does not imply that a effort is not exercised. It requires energy to do so. The interaction of energy two fields of energy the exchange is how we become aware of anything.

If your only interpretation of effort is that directed by self or self directed.....well then I would agree.
But most commonly effort has one major componant part intention. We even in the absence of self and other dicatomy do still intend awareness.
The absence of self other is taken by some to be a blissfull state of nothingness. A stopping or cessation of all stimuli perception, and some meditations reflect that. Exclusion meditations. Those are necessary but as a end...no. Such leads to dreamy states of fog and upon death le rebirth in formless realms.
Without self and other we still intend to be aware. WE can ignore a object coming into a room, but first is still the observation that the object has arrived and then must be ignorned. We can attempt by various means meditational drugs or other to observe no objects, as perhaps some do with the forcible restriction of the thought stream, but will find always there is something in some fashion to be observed. Even perhaps a inner observation as when asleep and for all intents and purpose dead to the world. This is not to state this is permenant or self sustaining this awareness, logically it is circumstantially produced as is all. But functionally when we are perhaps a being alive and such, we are always in some manner aware. No self intention certainly we remain aware. But intention overall regardless. If alive....we are aware, there is no option. So we make effort even though no self mandates this thing.
If aware we are compassionate but that is another matter.

A thing may be described as effortless. A heartbeat for most by example is effortless. Awareness is the same, it comes naturally with no perceivable effort. But nevertheless at some level a effort is required for a heart to beat and for a awareness to occur. It does not happen without the expenditure and exchange of energy states.

If you think I am stateing it all works out in the end as major defineing point you are quite missing the mark.

It all does work out in the end.The Buddhas example displays that. Yes he eventually did after eons upon eons come to the realization of how things are.
His intention to provide others with a shortcut through the particular human glitch available through our mileau of word and concepts we subside in so they may not have to go through the same eons upon eons is not a nonBuddhist or HIndu concept. It is in fact quite Buddhist and many many Buddhists hold that exact view on this thing.
The Buddha by this view to not come to show us a thing which we would not come upon or learn what could not be so or was so only for a few, he came to awaken us all quickly(relativgely) to how things really are. They are that way nevertheless, and will be arrived at. The suffering however may coninue for eons and eons or by our limited perceptive field for all intents and purposes...eternally. But actual eternity....as in forever..no. Such cannot logically observably, be so.

So in this realm at this time effort is required to learn study pray be devote and all the rest. I don't state presently as our circumstance attests this is a unnecessary thing.
I do state presently that finally considered this thing we work on has not to be worked on at all. Speed it up....yes certainly by all means.
NOt going to happen anyway eventually after eons upon eons of time....no I firmly disagree.
Any tower built even with the smallest of defects in its foundation will with time fall.YOu may have to give it eons upon eons of time but anything built upon defect cannot stand through eternity. Nothing in our experience shows or proves that may occur.

Suchly there is a place for effort on this thing and there is a place for relaxation into this thing. I speak for the latter.Though the effort is in predominancew as spiritual vehicle in this realm I state such is not a final answer to this thing even in this realm.

Awareness is paradoxically effortless for all intents and purposes and at some time we must become aware of that. But the implication of that does not infer that no effort is involved in being aware. A natural intent as is a heartbeat but a effort nevertheless.
So likewise there is a time for effort in this thing and a time for relaxation into it.
A fine point that requires study. WE at some level do indeed intend to understand. We cannot escape that. We continue our lives as that is our perceived method for doing so. It is not so but we see it that way so we continue living as being and do such things as beat our hearts. But this is at a very basic formative level beyond which we are aware. It occurs with the inception or first decision of being, when we perceive the incorrect self and other.Then our lives must be lived and all the rest. But such does not imply that since this thing is natural to us, this being aware, this heart beating this continuance of human life that it is effortless.

Awareness is effort. To arrive at a awareness of things as they are is finally considered without effort, as is our heartbeat.
So it is quite complex. Nevertheless I stand by my point, and state it remains true.

[gregkavarnos]

My comparison to Hinduism was around the concept of inevitability (fate, destiny), but it seems that my view of Hinduism is mistaken to an extent as the idea of fate they have is a negative:

As long as the stock of sanchita karma lasts, a part of it continues to be taken out as prarabdha karma for being enjoyed in one lifetime, leading to the cycle of birth and death. A Jiva (soul of a being) cannot attain moksha (liberation) from the cycle of birth and death, until the (accumulated) sanchita karmas are completely exhausted.

Goyandaka J, The Secret of Karmayoga
and not a positive like you state. BUT even Hindus acknowledge that intentional actions are the key to liberation.

[ronnewmexico]

Well my statement is not that intentional actions are not the key to liberation.
My statement is that intension is with a aware state removing of the me or self is... a naturally occuring thing.

Awarenesses naturally present... intention is to understand(always). It is on a false track which confuses self and other to be a valid understanding. From this cyclic birth rebirth all the rest ensues. With removal of the self and other concept does not occur the cessation of awareness. We don't become vegetables when we become enlightened. What we become is completely finally aware of things as they are. If intention was not part and parcel of this thing called awareness when enlightened... intention, goal realized, would seemingly be removed and thusly there would be no mover at all. The end point would be nothingness. We know that is not so. So logically that by extension becomes impossible.

My point in this regard is in reference to what you state.....intention to understand is awareness. If it was not so intended would it be our awareness?. No. It would be simple awareness. Not the composite of awareness that comprise in totality our awareness. Totally we do not simply become aware...we understand. Things objects what we consider ourselves consider exterior outside whatever, we attempt to understand them.

For any action to occur their is a mover. In one sense as I explain with the heart, some things may be taken to be unintended in a conscious sense.
A heart beating and all the rest....effortless. At some level however such things are indeed intended. A heart beats. We percieving ourselves as not awake or aware without such continuance. It establishes a continum of awareness(abeit mistaken). It is quite definitively intended in what we call a unconscious state. Part of what we are incites the heart to beat. It is automatic consciously but nevertheless still incited unconsciously(a misnomer actually).

Can a unaware object intend. Well by most interpretations no. What we are describing is however not a part of us or non perception holding object but from the perspective of ours....the observor. We as observor and participator as a characteristic of awareness, a composite thing in humans and other sentient beings are intending to understand. It is part and parcel of awareness. We don't simply see a object and that is it. We see a object and attempt to find it out. How does this object behave? Does it posess characteristics of intention as perhaps we may? Does it look touch and feel as us? Does it affect us in a manner? Is it perceived part of us or perceived exterior to us....and on and on. These are the various sundry aspects of our awareness to include a retentive aspect and a doing aspect(accomplishing) that through useage and familiarity may enable us to determine exactly how this object is in relationship to what we perceive as ourselves. All of this helping us to understand in most simple terms a orange ball entering a room but in more complex form...everything. Automatic, indeed at most common behaviors all of this is being done quite unconsciously quickly and peceived automatically. Some consciously(and that is mainly what we are attending to) but nevertheless all parts functioning when as a sentient being. Predominance varying depending upon form. Nevertheless all aspects of a aware thing always having some of all of those things briefly described.
So that said within this awareness, though circumstantially produced when produced it produces with this aspect of intention....it intends to understand. Part and parcel of what we are. Beyond simple awareness is what we are. Cognicizing understanding things(when present) is what we are always.


Conscious intention....if this was all conscious intention upon death since such things could not be called in these conventional terms to be present, then absolutely would stop any spiritual progression and most likely any rebirth. Such things do not in fact depend upon conscious intention as sole mover. Part they do and part they do not. Many practices, tantric meditational and others are indeed intended to move the conscious performance to a unconscious understanding. And then it is thought to persevere the transions of death and such things. If such was not so, a simple intellectual understanding is all we could aim at and with death all that would quickly end. And the inverse all a spiritual path would require would be a intellectual understanging, which we know does not suffice. Crisis presents and we regress.

Most would agree it is not a human conscious state that preserveres beyond death of a body.

So no...it is how you are taking me to mean intention. I conceive intention as being part and parcel of our awareness and thusly naturally present.
You it seems are taking intention to be present only in normally found conscious state.
It can be taken to mean that, there are various interpretations of words but in this context that is not what I am refereing.

Of course I state repeatedly yes in this realm at this time it is necessary most commonly to consciously intend spiritual progression. A shortcut it is and may be most effective. Ultimately considered....this thing will happen anyway. The difference is time.
Yes, in our nomally considered way of thinking samsara will continue forever. WE simply cannot apprehend how long this thing will take. Nor can we envision how large this thing is, what we are part of. We would faint outright or or heads would implode, if we could concieve such things. We cannot.
Our perceptive limitation however does not imply fact.

Finally considered this thing of enlightenment requires no effort nor intention. Such effort and intention is inherantly present whenever we are aware. Awareness again stated to the side, as a conditional response(not inherantly existant).

Hinduism as I mention with the reference to the action taken by the Indian Judiciary can be many things to many peoples. Jains and Buddhists do not consider themselves normally Hindus but you may indeed find Hindus that consider themselves completely Buddhists.
So one or many quotes from various HIndu texts will not express a Hindu view necessarily. Yes what is stated and quoted is true and right for the vast majority of HIndus but I would hesitate to make a blanket statement on Hindu beliefs without considering the large encompassment of that body of work.

In any event I have never heard of any HIndu belief encompassion no inherant existance whatsoever to include the perceiver or that which is awareness itself as being nonexistant. I feel safe in saying that. That is my view and it is also a minority but valid as Buddhist view. Basically it cannot be a HIndu view.
Soul universal perhaps always there is a actual continuing object of awareness in Hinduism.
Many many Buddhists also hold some degree of soul presence belief. Degree depending upon school. Some absolutely do not in any form.
I am as they are in that regard. So I cannot be Hindu. That is really not a important thing.

Relaxing into things I can provide reference in published sources for such statements, if I found it necessary.
I am not however basing my statements on reference or stateing what others state regardless of how high authority may say it.
Mine is a basic and logical observational argument....we cannot find falsely constructed things sustaining...ever. Never ever in our reality.
I base everything I state on what I find. Excepting parts of things expecting to find some things somewhere which are not present in our reality nor in our minds voice the things most close to us and thusly readily available for study.....delusional. Leads straight to delusion. ReInforces delusion.

This is a fact and may be found by any of us. It is quite easy but requires study of it. Buddhahood if we examine all its composite part....is inevitable.
Not a common view a rather complex view as I express. But as things may be stated that Buddhahood may not be attained(absolutely true) so may the inverse be stated as well and found absolutely true as well. It is a certainty. No unbalanced thing may sustain. A three legged stool will always collapse eventually. The only question is when. Suchly our imperfect perception our mistaken awareness will certainly eventually collapse under its own weight. The weight being billions and billions of lives.
The question is when. Nothng here states we may not employ or should not employ methods to hasten its demise as suggest the teacher Buddha,and basically any teacher of tantra.

But at some point it will collapse regardless...it did for the teacher Buddha it will for us. He posessed nothing we do not. He knew nothing we did not. We in fact were quite superior to him at the start of his eventual collapse, as humans, as he was a hell being. So in no manner should we ever be discouraged.

So it is balanced this thing and that.
I am of course again just a simple layperson but this is a simple thing. What I find here I find here. What I don't find here(before me) I find nowhere and do not suppose it lies elsewhere. Ignorance is not a close loop. We learn as sentinent beings things(retention is part of our cognicizing aspect)....it is inevitable. How long......well that depends.

[gregkavarnos]

My statement is that intension is with a aware state removing of the me or self is... a naturally occuring thing.

Hmmmm.... Maybe the presence of this natural state is a natural occuring thing but the intention to awaken to this state does not seem to be naturally occuring, cause if it was this existence would be full of enlightened beings, RIGHT NOW!

I do agree that relaxation is like 99% of the equation!

[ronnewmexico]

Well just to hypotheize...if our plane of existance was filled with enlightened beings at this very moment, would we deeluded beings with one main imperitive, that imperitive being me and all the rest this samsaric realm really exists affirmation of self) would we allow ourselves to see them?

I contend firmly....no
Me goes to any extent as our many and varied lives do attest to sustain ite realness. Many examples can be shown in that regard.
Me simply will not allow anything that conflicts with the notion of me to be seen or known.
Enlightened beings, what says such is not the case....because we cannot see them.....
We can become enlightened with the characteristics of our present environment at any instant. A time 2500 years ago is not differing from this time, nor are the peoples nor was the Buddha. We fail to see it. Suchly we may quite fail to see any others of this nature displayed.

Yes there are billions upon billions, uncountable actually, of us and billions upon billions of years if we have to gradually work through this thing as the teacher Buddha displays but nothing in that equation does state there is not a as great or greater composite that is realized.

Intention as stated is not always a conscious thing. A unintended consequence may occur in this lifetime. A piece of a plane may drop from the sky and kill a three year old playing in a sandbox outside of a home. No know conscious event or thought in that childs present lifetime would account for such a thing.
But if one abscribes to a totality of cause and effect, described as karma by some, there is indeed a intention to every occurance.
A misdirected intention that has us as being causeing selfly inspired this great pain and suffering but all with the underlying intention of finding happiness, equinimity. Such is a underlying intent resultant in apparent accident for no known reason nor cause. So thusly established intention is not always conscious, suchly in a very fundamental looking being aware(as we are aware) has the intentional aspect of wanting to know within. We see intentions of this sort as seperate and apart from us(how could we be a part of a plane falling from the sky) but what we take to be exterior is not. Accidental occurace is not accidental but intended, not certainly at a conscious level but intended nevertheless.

At a stage in this thing intending to become spiritual is not a necessary thing. Spirituality is enbedded in our very contistuancy.
Understanding is enlightenment. Full complete understanding is full complete enlighenment. As this is as we are by composite part which constitutes our awareness it is not a added thing of the spiritual that brings us such it is a letting go to what we are that brings us so.

As it is natural, built on the stone of our constituant parts when circumstances precipitate our presence as sentient beings, we always strive for this thing of understanding. It will come with time wether we like it or not. The Buddha....provides a path to speed up the process.

Of course the conventional path is necessary for this realm and for most all the sentient beings within. Our present environment speaks of our spiritual current conscious and unconscious understanding. IN this realm this is mostly necessary. But the norm does not imply the rule.
Eventually even that must be understood to not be quite necessary. For most all of us includeing of course all simple beings as I that is not the case.
But to deny that and to believe this is a very rare thing in the totality of things....mistaken.
In our plane of existance our realm we may make such statements, but such is not the totality of things.

I being simple do not of course claim to see such being of enlightened states around me or in my realm. I am simply not advanced. Feel them...quite certainly I feel them in everything I find. They are myriad and multiple. Simple though I am I may feel them.....pay attention and then state you do not.
But first pay attention and then make the statement they are not amongst us.

You will not find such is so. But first you must study that thing to find if it is so.

We are drawn to them by our nature(circumstantial nature) we must work ardently to not see and feel them. So studied it is easy relatively to find their presence amongst us. We generally refuse to see them..that is all.
Thay are also all but that like compassion being inherant to this thing of understanding is another subject. Is our reality alive as the hindus (some state perhaps) but without a soul and unmoving part as the HIndus believe in....that also is another subject.

[ground]

Well just to hypotheize...if ...

I contend firmly....no

A hyphothesis that cannot be tested is just papanca and there is no use in thinking about or arguing about it.


Kind regards

[ronnewmexico]

Really

I find none, absolutely no other singular person or persons in groups.... to qualify what may be thought about nor discussed(Istate no argument in the terms described though what I state is a argument)

excepting myself. Others may engage or not...that's their choice. The engagement is indeed a validation of sorts to the logical basis of the initial.

I state how this may be found in a evidenciary fashion quite unequivocally....with study.
We cannot expect to find what is and what is not by not studying both.
Study involves always testing of study or known facts to ascertain the facts one assumes correct are.
No study would be a correct study without such.In this particular such study must most often be done experientally.
Such are the means.