Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

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Astus
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Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 2:02 pm

A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

The Hanmi lineage has been passed on through one master per generation. Master Yu Tian Jian is the highest and only living master of Hanmi, the Honorable Abbot of the 1000-year old LongQuan Temple in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia, a doctor of Chinese medicine, and acknowledged as a Living Buddha in China.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby DGA » Sat May 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Unknown for centuries? That's a remarkable claim.
I don't know anything about Hongaku Jodo.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22229

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 2:06 pm

I'm sceptical about a lineage being entirely secret for twelve centuries.

Show me some historical proof that it was active during the Song, Yuan or Ming, and it might seem plausible.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 2:59 pm

How is it remarkable? Mahayana sutras hidden for half a millennium, tantric texts unknown for a thousand years, what is new about it? By the way, he is not alone in being an heir to the so far hidden Chinese Esoteric school, so his claim of being the only representative of it is even more bold but not a new phenomenon either (just think of the Huineng story).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 3:06 pm

Astus wrote:How is it remarkable? Mahayana sutras hidden for half a millennium, tantric texts unknown for a thousand years, what is new about it? By the way, he is not alone in being an heir to the so far hidden Chinese Esoteric school, so his claim of being the only representative of it is even more bold but not a new phenomenon either (just think of the Huineng story).


Well this is a lineage that should be traceable to the Tang Dynasty, or to Shingon in Japan which is the well-documented successor to Tang Vajrayana.

In Vajrayana having transmission (guanding 灌頂) is absolutely essential. You can't just pick it up from books.

The lineage should have individuals in history that can be verified as having actually lived.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 4:00 pm

It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.

But I'm not trying to defend them just point to the phenomenon of legitimising oneself through claims of lineage and tradition. This exists not just in Buddhism but in so many other forms of doctrines (教 - can't think of a better word that covers religions, schools of thoughts and such) like neo-paganism, Western esotericism, Hinduism, etc. And all these traditions most of the time lack the kind of historical background they want people believe in. It seems to me that either a tradition dies out at some point and then it's later revived or it becomes established enough to stay alive but because of its institutionalisation lineage becomes meaningless, a mere formality and paperwork.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 5:05 pm

Astus wrote:A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

The Hanmi lineage has been passed on through one master per generation. Master Yu Tian Jian is the highest and only living master of Hanmi, the Honorable Abbot of the 1000-year old LongQuan Temple in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia, a doctor of Chinese medicine, and acknowledged as a Living Buddha in China.


I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.
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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 5:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.


It was this advert of a programme that caught my attention and made me think it'd be advisable to provide views of this group beyond what is on their sites. They call him there "Top international Zen Master Dechan Jueren".
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby DGA » Sat May 14, 2011 6:34 pm

Astus wrote:It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.

But I'm not trying to defend them just point to the phenomenon of legitimising oneself through claims of lineage and tradition. This exists not just in Buddhism but in so many other forms of doctrines (教 - can't think of a better word that covers religions, schools of thoughts and such) like neo-paganism, Western esotericism, Hinduism, etc. And all these traditions most of the time lack the kind of historical background they want people believe in. It seems to me that either a tradition dies out at some point and then it's later revived or it becomes established enough to stay alive but because of its institutionalisation lineage becomes meaningless, a mere formality and paperwork.


Right. That's why I used the word "remarkable." It would be remarkable indeed if such a lineage could be documented through an archive of some kind (texts, artifacts, even folklore). Exceptionally remarkable. If.
I don't know anything about Hongaku Jodo.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22229

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 6:45 pm

Astus wrote:It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.


Right, but in the case of Vajrayana you need, generally speaking, a master to disciple transmission. This is how it works in Shingon which is the extant representative of East Asian Vajrayana.

If this group could at least document their lineage and provide names of people who we could verify as actually having existed and practised at least some kind of Buddhism, it would lend credibility to their claims, though still not prove it.

I'm sceptical about a secret transmission of Vajrayana that supposedly lasted over 1000 years unknown. I've never heard or read any reference at all to such a group. That doesn't disprove its existence, but then the onus is on them to provide the proof.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 6:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.


It was this advert of a programme that caught my attention and made me think it'd be advisable to provide views of this group beyond what is on their sites. They call him there "Top international Zen Master Dechan Jueren".



This sounds suspicious:

Earlier this year, Dechan Jueren, already the 49th Master of the Esoteric School, became the New Master of the Chinese Linji school of Zen Buddhism, the most authentic and recognised Zen school in China.


As most people know, Chinese Linji is Chan, not Zen. Moreover, who nominated him as the New Master of Linji? The Linji isn't even a school anymore, but rather just a ordination lineage without any institution behind it.


The title was passed on by the 105 year old GrandMaster Fozhi. Esoteric Buddhism had, until Dechan Jeuren started speaking in public, been an underground tradition that disappeared from common knowledge centuries ago following religious persecution.


Again, Linji is an ordination lineage, not an institution. Claiming to be a master of the "Esoteric School" and a master of the "Linji school of Zen" should alarm people.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 7:06 pm

Huseng wrote:This sounds suspicious:

Earlier this year, Dechan Jueren, already the 49th Master of the Esoteric School, became the New Master of the Chinese Linji school of Zen Buddhism, the most authentic and recognised Zen school in China.


As most people know, Chinese Linji is Chan, not Zen. Moreover, who nominated him as the New Master of Linji? The Linji isn't even a school anymore, but rather just a ordination lineage without any institution behind it.

Again, Linji is an ordination lineage, not an institution. Claiming to be a master of the "Esoteric School" and a master of the "Linji school of Zen" should alarm people.


Linji is not just an ordination but a Dharma-transmission lineage too and the two exists separately, for instance check out Ven. Shengyan's lineage. On Youtube you can actually find Dechan's transmission ceremony, here's the first part of five.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Astus wrote:Linji is not just an ordination but a Dharma-transmission lineage too and the two exists separately, for instance check out Ven. Shengyan's lineage. On Youtube you can actually find Dechan's transmission ceremony, here's the first part of five.


The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 8:33 pm

Huseng wrote:The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.


Nah, it's not sympathy but a good example when the focus is on legitimacy instead of authenticity, on lineage instead of doctrine. There is a lesson to learn here for Western Buddhism.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby jake » Sat May 14, 2011 9:51 pm

Astus wrote:A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.


Huiguo did not go to Japan with Kukai. Huiguo died. This is why Kukai returned to Japan earlier than originally planned.
“The triple world is no more than an inn for travelers, but the one-mind is our true home,” Kukai (trans. Eijo DREITLEIN)

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sun May 15, 2011 1:56 am

Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.


Nah, it's not sympathy but a good example when the focus is on legitimacy instead of authenticity, on lineage instead of doctrine. There is a lesson to learn here for Western Buddhism.


Legitimacy and lineage are essential in the case of Vajrayana.

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sun May 15, 2011 8:15 pm

Huseng wrote:Legitimacy and lineage are essential in the case of Vajrayana.


So it is said about Zen. Perhaps there aren't enough scholars in Tibetology to look at history with a critical eye.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Seishin » Mon May 16, 2011 2:27 pm

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Nuff said :popcorn:

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Mon May 16, 2011 2:38 pm

Seishin wrote:Nuff said :popcorn:


It's magic. You have to use the right mantra (spell) to generate the required karma (spiritual energy) that will result in the desired effect. Logical. :tongue:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Seishin » Mon May 16, 2011 2:46 pm

Did you read the testimonials? Scroll down to the "water purification technique" http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/site/testimonials.html
Or, why not purchase a spiritual protection mask to shield you from radiation. A bargain at $600 http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/site/P ... Masks.html


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