Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 2:02 pm

A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

The Hanmi lineage has been passed on through one master per generation. Master Yu Tian Jian is the highest and only living master of Hanmi, the Honorable Abbot of the 1000-year old LongQuan Temple in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia, a doctor of Chinese medicine, and acknowledged as a Living Buddha in China.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Jikan » Sat May 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Unknown for centuries? That's a remarkable claim.
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 2:06 pm

I'm sceptical about a lineage being entirely secret for twelve centuries.

Show me some historical proof that it was active during the Song, Yuan or Ming, and it might seem plausible.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 2:59 pm

How is it remarkable? Mahayana sutras hidden for half a millennium, tantric texts unknown for a thousand years, what is new about it? By the way, he is not alone in being an heir to the so far hidden Chinese Esoteric school, so his claim of being the only representative of it is even more bold but not a new phenomenon either (just think of the Huineng story).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 3:06 pm

Astus wrote:How is it remarkable? Mahayana sutras hidden for half a millennium, tantric texts unknown for a thousand years, what is new about it? By the way, he is not alone in being an heir to the so far hidden Chinese Esoteric school, so his claim of being the only representative of it is even more bold but not a new phenomenon either (just think of the Huineng story).


Well this is a lineage that should be traceable to the Tang Dynasty, or to Shingon in Japan which is the well-documented successor to Tang Vajrayana.

In Vajrayana having transmission (guanding 灌頂) is absolutely essential. You can't just pick it up from books.

The lineage should have individuals in history that can be verified as having actually lived.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 4:00 pm

It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.

But I'm not trying to defend them just point to the phenomenon of legitimising oneself through claims of lineage and tradition. This exists not just in Buddhism but in so many other forms of doctrines (教 - can't think of a better word that covers religions, schools of thoughts and such) like neo-paganism, Western esotericism, Hinduism, etc. And all these traditions most of the time lack the kind of historical background they want people believe in. It seems to me that either a tradition dies out at some point and then it's later revived or it becomes established enough to stay alive but because of its institutionalisation lineage becomes meaningless, a mere formality and paperwork.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 5:05 pm

Astus wrote:A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

The Hanmi lineage has been passed on through one master per generation. Master Yu Tian Jian is the highest and only living master of Hanmi, the Honorable Abbot of the 1000-year old LongQuan Temple in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia, a doctor of Chinese medicine, and acknowledged as a Living Buddha in China.


I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 5:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.


It was this advert of a programme that caught my attention and made me think it'd be advisable to provide views of this group beyond what is on their sites. They call him there "Top international Zen Master Dechan Jueren".
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Jikan » Sat May 14, 2011 6:34 pm

Astus wrote:It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.

But I'm not trying to defend them just point to the phenomenon of legitimising oneself through claims of lineage and tradition. This exists not just in Buddhism but in so many other forms of doctrines (教 - can't think of a better word that covers religions, schools of thoughts and such) like neo-paganism, Western esotericism, Hinduism, etc. And all these traditions most of the time lack the kind of historical background they want people believe in. It seems to me that either a tradition dies out at some point and then it's later revived or it becomes established enough to stay alive but because of its institutionalisation lineage becomes meaningless, a mere formality and paperwork.


Right. That's why I used the word "remarkable." It would be remarkable indeed if such a lineage could be documented through an archive of some kind (texts, artifacts, even folklore). Exceptionally remarkable. If.
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 6:45 pm

Astus wrote:It doesn't take much to make up a lineage. One can also just say that it was a transmission from one of the buddhas, bodhisattvas or vajrasattvas.


Right, but in the case of Vajrayana you need, generally speaking, a master to disciple transmission. This is how it works in Shingon which is the extant representative of East Asian Vajrayana.

If this group could at least document their lineage and provide names of people who we could verify as actually having existed and practised at least some kind of Buddhism, it would lend credibility to their claims, though still not prove it.

I'm sceptical about a secret transmission of Vajrayana that supposedly lasted over 1000 years unknown. I've never heard or read any reference at all to such a group. That doesn't disprove its existence, but then the onus is on them to provide the proof.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 6:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.


It was this advert of a programme that caught my attention and made me think it'd be advisable to provide views of this group beyond what is on their sites. They call him there "Top international Zen Master Dechan Jueren".



This sounds suspicious:

Earlier this year, Dechan Jueren, already the 49th Master of the Esoteric School, became the New Master of the Chinese Linji school of Zen Buddhism, the most authentic and recognised Zen school in China.


As most people know, Chinese Linji is Chan, not Zen. Moreover, who nominated him as the New Master of Linji? The Linji isn't even a school anymore, but rather just a ordination lineage without any institution behind it.


The title was passed on by the 105 year old GrandMaster Fozhi. Esoteric Buddhism had, until Dechan Jeuren started speaking in public, been an underground tradition that disappeared from common knowledge centuries ago following religious persecution.


Again, Linji is an ordination lineage, not an institution. Claiming to be a master of the "Esoteric School" and a master of the "Linji school of Zen" should alarm people.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 7:06 pm

Huseng wrote:This sounds suspicious:

Earlier this year, Dechan Jueren, already the 49th Master of the Esoteric School, became the New Master of the Chinese Linji school of Zen Buddhism, the most authentic and recognised Zen school in China.


As most people know, Chinese Linji is Chan, not Zen. Moreover, who nominated him as the New Master of Linji? The Linji isn't even a school anymore, but rather just a ordination lineage without any institution behind it.

Again, Linji is an ordination lineage, not an institution. Claiming to be a master of the "Esoteric School" and a master of the "Linji school of Zen" should alarm people.


Linji is not just an ordination but a Dharma-transmission lineage too and the two exists separately, for instance check out Ven. Shengyan's lineage. On Youtube you can actually find Dechan's transmission ceremony, here's the first part of five.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Astus wrote:Linji is not just an ordination but a Dharma-transmission lineage too and the two exists separately, for instance check out Ven. Shengyan's lineage. On Youtube you can actually find Dechan's transmission ceremony, here's the first part of five.


The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sat May 14, 2011 8:33 pm

Huseng wrote:The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.


Nah, it's not sympathy but a good example when the focus is on legitimacy instead of authenticity, on lineage instead of doctrine. There is a lesson to learn here for Western Buddhism.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby jake » Sat May 14, 2011 9:51 pm

Astus wrote:A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.


Huiguo did not go to Japan with Kukai. Huiguo died. This is why Kukai returned to Japan earlier than originally planned.
jake
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Sun May 15, 2011 1:56 am

Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:The fact that it is presented on youtube the way it is raises more suspicions.

You might be sympathetic to him, but his story strikes me as suspect.


Nah, it's not sympathy but a good example when the focus is on legitimacy instead of authenticity, on lineage instead of doctrine. There is a lesson to learn here for Western Buddhism.


Legitimacy and lineage are essential in the case of Vajrayana.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Sun May 15, 2011 8:15 pm

Huseng wrote:Legitimacy and lineage are essential in the case of Vajrayana.


So it is said about Zen. Perhaps there aren't enough scholars in Tibetology to look at history with a critical eye.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Seishin » Mon May 16, 2011 2:27 pm

I LOVE this! :twothumbsup:

Do you want to have a healthy body? Do you need good luck? Would you like to experience overflowing financial resources? Would you like to have an environment that is according to your wishes?

See how Esoteric Buddhism can help! Come visit the Dari Rulai Temple. http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html


Nuff said :popcorn:
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Astus » Mon May 16, 2011 2:38 pm

Seishin wrote:Nuff said :popcorn:


It's magic. You have to use the right mantra (spell) to generate the required karma (spiritual energy) that will result in the desired effect. Logical. :tongue:
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

Postby Seishin » Mon May 16, 2011 2:46 pm

Did you read the testimonials? Scroll down to the "water purification technique" http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/site/testimonials.html
Or, why not purchase a spiritual protection mask to shield you from radiation. A bargain at $600 http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/site/P ... Masks.html
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Next

Return to East Asian Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

>