Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

[Malcolm]

Or at least that is how it seems to me.

Dzogchen is liberation through recognition. That is all.

N

[adinatha]

There is no way to improve on something perfect already i.e. your primordial state. But there is something to do in terms of removing your ignorance of that fact. That is what I was trying to communicate with you. The difference between a buddha and sentient being is only recognition and integration with that state or not.

Dzogchen is not "a way of being" per se. It is not a "style". It is remaining in a state of knowledge about one's primordial state, that's all.

Dear Namdrol, I am not disagreeing with you but the large bit implies a doing, albeit not to gain something, any more than digging a mound of dirt off a pile of treasure does not mean you gain a treasure, but still a method. To remove, rather than to develop, still implies a doing. After that there is an abiding.

To recognise ones true nature also requires that one recognise ones flase concept of their "true" nature. When you draw a thorn from a wound the body reverts to its normal state, it does not develop into something else. Ignorance is the thorn, the method removes the thorn and the healed state is the abiding.

Or at least that is how it seems to me.

Not doing or nondoing. Not abiding or nonabiding. No replacing or removing. No before, after or in between. Not anything at all.

[tamdrin]

that is very zen now, isn't it...

[gregkavarnos]

It certainly moved my bowels!


PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!

[adinatha]

It certainly moved my bowels!

I hope not before you got your pants off. Don't worry. The terror turns into happiness.

PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!

Ummm. Okay?

[gregkavarnos]

]PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!

Ummm. Okay?

What I am saying my friend is that it does not have to be couched in negatives. What is the absence of ignorance? The presence of wisdom. What is the absence of hatred? The presence of loving kindness. You don't have to explain what it "lacks", one can define it by what it "contains".

[Anders]

]PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!

Ummm. Okay?

What I am saying my friend is that it does not have to be couched in negatives. What is the absence of ignorance? The presence of wisdom. What is the absence of hatred? The presence of loving kindness. You don't have to explain what it "lacks", one can define it by what it "contains".

Tell that to a madhyamikan.

[gregkavarnos]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

[Pero]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Why is that funny?

[Malcolm]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Yes, but by bodhicitta he explicitly stated it is not the bodhicitta of sutra.

[Josef]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?

[Malcolm]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?

Not so much.

[Josef]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?

Not so much.

I didn't think so. Just wanted to make sure.
thanks

[gregkavarnos]

From Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, 1600:

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

sumatran rhinocerous dung.jpg (18.02 KiB) Viewed 254 times

[Malcolm]

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

"A rose is a rose is a rose".

-- G. Stein.

[adinatha]

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

This is right. This is beyond presence or absence.

[adinatha]

Hey Namdrol, Don't know if you saw above. Was that Mahamudra text you cited above published in English somewhere?

[Malcolm]

Is the text above published in English somewhere? I would like to hunt down a copy. Wonderful!

Only in my incomplete and unedited rendering.

N

[gregkavarnos]

I beg your pardon I never promised you a rose garden
Along with the sunshine there's gotta be a little rain sometime
When you take you gotta give so live and let live and let go oh oh oh oh
I beg your pardon I never promised you a rose garden.

Martina McBride

PS Yeshe Tsogyal step aside, there's a new dakini in town!

[adinatha]

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.

What are you referring to when you say "essence mahamudra"? What introduction?