Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 7:01 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Or at least that is how it seems to me.
:namaste:



Dzogchen is liberation through recognition. That is all.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 7:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:There is no way to improve on something perfect already i.e. your primordial state. But there is something to do in terms of removing your ignorance of that fact. That is what I was trying to communicate with you. The difference between a buddha and sentient being is only recognition and integration with that state or not.

Dzogchen is not "a way of being" per se. It is not a "style". It is remaining in a state of knowledge about one's primordial state, that's all.

Dear Namdrol, I am not disagreeing with you but the large bit implies a doing, albeit not to gain something, any more than digging a mound of dirt off a pile of treasure does not mean you gain a treasure, but still a method. To remove, rather than to develop, still implies a doing. After that there is an abiding.

To recognise ones true nature also requires that one recognise ones flase concept of their "true" nature. When you draw a thorn from a wound the body reverts to its normal state, it does not develop into something else. Ignorance is the thorn, the method removes the thorn and the healed state is the abiding.

Or at least that is how it seems to me.
:namaste:


Not doing or nondoing. Not abiding or nonabiding. No replacing or removing. No before, after or in between. Not anything at all.
Last edited by adinatha on Fri May 13, 2011 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Fri May 13, 2011 8:12 pm

that is very zen now, isn't it...
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 13, 2011 8:33 pm

It certainly moved my bowels! :tongue:
:namaste:

PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 14, 2011 1:24 am

gregkavarnos wrote:It certainly moved my bowels! :tongue:
:namaste:


I hope not before you got your pants off. Don't worry. The terror turns into happiness.

PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!


Ummm. Okay?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 14, 2011 8:09 am

adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:]PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!


Ummm. Okay?
What I am saying my friend is that it does not have to be couched in negatives. What is the absence of ignorance? The presence of wisdom. What is the absence of hatred? The presence of loving kindness. You don't have to explain what it "lacks", one can define it by what it "contains".
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Anders » Sat May 14, 2011 9:01 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:]PS Doing and nondoing. Abiding and nonabiding. Replacing and removing. Before, after and in between. Everything!

Negative infinity and positive infinity are both the same!


Ummm. Okay?
What I am saying my friend is that it does not have to be couched in negatives. What is the absence of ignorance? The presence of wisdom. What is the absence of hatred? The presence of loving kindness. You don't have to explain what it "lacks", one can define it by what it "contains".
:namaste:


Tell that to a madhyamikan.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Pero » Sat May 14, 2011 5:02 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Why is that funny?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 5:03 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:



Yes, but by bodhicitta he explicitly stated it is not the bodhicitta of sutra.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Josef » Sat May 14, 2011 5:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 5:47 pm

Nangwa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?



Not so much.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Josef » Sat May 14, 2011 5:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:

Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?



Not so much.

I didn't think so. Just wanted to make sure.
thanks
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 14, 2011 6:10 pm

From Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, 1600:
JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

sumatran rhinocerous dung.jpg
sumatran rhinocerous dung.jpg (18.02 KiB) Viewed 331 times

:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 6:31 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;



"A rose is a rose is a rose".

-- G. Stein.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 14, 2011 6:35 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.
:namaste:


This is right. This is beyond presence or absence.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 14, 2011 6:36 pm

Hey Namdrol, Don't know if you saw above. Was that Mahamudra text you cited above published in English somewhere?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 14, 2011 6:38 pm

adinatha wrote:
Is the text above published in English somewhere? I would like to hunt down a copy. Wonderful!


Only in my incomplete and unedited rendering.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10162
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 14, 2011 6:42 pm

I beg your pardon I never promised you a rose garden
Along with the sunshine there's gotta be a little rain sometime
When you take you gotta give so live and let live and let go oh oh oh oh
I beg your pardon I never promised you a rose garden.

Martina McBride
:tongue:
PS Yeshe Tsogyal step aside, there's a new dakini in town!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sun May 15, 2011 6:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.


What are you referring to when you say "essence mahamudra"? What introduction?
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